Welcome back to Escatalogy Matters. I'm your host Josh Howard. I'm joined today by a repeat guest Dave Schrock. Dave, thanks so much for joining me brother. Well, how'd it be here, brother? How many times have you popped onto Escatalogy Matters at this point? Well, it's funny. I'm redoing my website and so I was pulling down YouTube videos. It's been at least two or three times. Excellent. We've been together. Excellent. When you get to a little known fact, when you get to six episodes coming on to Escatalogy Matters, you actually, you get nothing but a high five you from afar. So, well, you know, always a little look forward to you. You can buy me a cup of coffee as I drive through, uh, Haslwena. Hey, if you, if you were ever in Western PA, I will be honored, although not a lot of coffee shops here, but anyway, nobody wants to hear about this. Today, we're talking SBC, which I find to be number one, uh, impactful for Christians. Number two, something that I approach with just a little bit of respectful humility. So, um, I have background in the SBC. You serve within the SBC. Um, I have, I have since moved over to Presbyterian circles and I'll ask you, Dave, to just hold back your barbs and your critiques there. But, uh, still have a lot of brothers and friends in the SBC. Obviously, um, we still, we still greatly care about the SBC. And again, we've made this point before, but I think Christians should just be aware that we should care about other denominations, um, especially in the West and especially in America. And for most Christian Protestants in America, that means you should care about the SBC simply because it is large. It does represent the largest block of Protestants within the US. And as the way the SBC goes, um, so goes so many other denominations, we, I think it's proper for us to care about one another. Um, you know, I kind of jokingly said that I approach this with humility because again, I'm not an SBC insider and yet I do care about it and we, we do want to talk about those things. Um, but your church, for example, you serve at a SBC church, correct? Yeah. So, uh, actually the church I serve at is in northern Virginia, uh, been there for almost 11 years. When I came, it was not a cooperating church in the SBC. Um, but after about two, three years, uh, as our church got to know a little bit more of the international mission board and some of the different ways that there are opportunities in the SBC with education and church planning all the rest, uh, it actually was not my leadership that led our church to become SBC is one of our other elders. And I was happy to do that. Uh, I had certainly thought in the back of my mind of doing that at some point. It actually happened faster than I would have anticipated. And so for last eight or nine years, our church has cooperated with the SBC, which means that we give to, um, the Southern Baptist Convention, we give to Southern seminary, we give to the international mission board. And even that requires a little bit of explanation because a cooperating church is one that would give to the cooperative program that began in 1925. And that was the funding mechanism for everything that SBC has done for the last 100 years. Uh, but about in 2010, uh, there was a great commission task force that actually opened the door to give, uh, designated gifts to different entities in the SBC. And because of issues that we ran into, uh, things like the ethics and religious liberties commission and other things going on in the convention, we didn't continue to give to the cooperative program, uh, but rather directed our gifts to certain entities that we had more confidence in. Uh, and that kind of tells you the state of the SBC today, uh, and even some of the funding challenges that it has faced. So that's getting into the weeds right from the start, but that's at least a bit about how our church has cooperated with the SBC. Yeah, no, it's, that's a good kind of intro. And for those who don't know, the SBC has six officially designated seminaries. Um, and they, they educate and train a lot of guys that are not within SBC circles, which I think that surprises a lot of people, but, um, I'm a graduate from, um, Midwestern, you're a Southern graduate and a Southern guy. Um, and I, I suspect you probably had the same experience I did, which is, um, probably, I would say a third of the guys that I was in classes with were not necessarily SBC. Um, but a lot of guys come through those seminaries for training. So it's a, it's a large training ground, if nothing else for a lot of guys that come through. Yep. Um, Dave, how is the SBC doing currently? So there's, um, I, I have not kept up again. I'm not a SBC insider. I don't know, you know, what current current shifts and, and political uh, machinations look like within the SBC. Um, but I'm just curious what's your, what's your gauge on the state of the SBC, the health of the SBC. Um, there has been obviously a lot in the, I say the news, the Twitter news. There's been a lot on the interwebs about, um, the, uh, investigation into possible sexual abuse within clergy within the SBC and a lot of the, I think fall out, um, from how that was handled and from maybe how funds were directed and stewardship questions. There's a lot there. I don't know how much you want to talk about that stuff, but just general take, how's your, how's your, uh, your take on the SBC's health at this point? Yeah. So I think it's a question mark. Uh, so our month at Christ overall, so one of the ministries I'm a part of is Christ overall that has monthly themes and uh, might be Bible theology, church, culture, but in March, we're always looking at this other Baptist convention. So our ministry began with a host of pastors and professors and graduates from different entities in the SBC. So we have a great care for that. Want to be faithful to help steward that. And so this year, we're asking the question, can the center hold? Uh, and that means we have kind of looked at a number of different things. We've had a number of articles from solid guys on church planting and financial transparency as well as the trustee system and a host of other things. Uh, and really, the question has been can the center hold? Uh, because again, what makes a Southern Baptist church or Southern Baptist church is not a hierarchy. Uh, this is one of the differences between the SBC and, let's say, the PCA. So there's a kind of Presbyterian governance that is in the PCA that is not the same in the Southern Baptist convention. And so it's a convention of churches that associate voluntarily with one another. And there's not a governance board or structure, uh, that is there. Every church owns its own building. Every church has a responsibility to the Lord for its own doctrine. Um, but we share a common faith and practice and it's outlined in the Baptist faith and message. Uh, and we cooperate for, again, education, admissions and the rest. But I would say in the last 10 years in particular, there's just been a host of questions and concerns. You mentioned some of the things with, uh, the sex abuse task force that came out of the accusations that came from the Houston Chronicle. I think it was 2019 or so, uh, where there are about 700 names of men, mostly men, probably all men, uh, who were accused of certainly sexual abuse in the church and that just led to a whole domino effect of problems in the SBC. And, and again, it's come to the forefront online because the, the guys out of Moscow Idaho just released a documentary kind of highlighting all of that and the ways that leaders in the SBC were played, uh, to use that language and they're playing on the language of Tom Askel from another documentary 2019 or so on the critical race theory, uh, that was certainly at the forefront of the convention resolution nine was something that was put forward to encourage the use of analytical tools that are derived from critical race theory and that really has never been, um, dealt with. That's continued to be something in the back, uh, the history of the recent history of SBC. So all of those things being equal, you go through 2020 and, um, COVID and the challenges with sex abuse and critical race theory and, and even just some of the dynamics between the leadership and the convention and just, what I would say, the vocal conservatives and you have a lot of questions, you have a lot of fractures, you have a lot of different ideas of what it means to be Southern Baptist going forward. And so that's what we at Christ of Varyl have been trying to address this week or I should say this month, uh, as we're trying to answer those questions, uh, and to give some perspective on what it would take to move forward together. Our sponsors. Steadfastsigars.com promo code escatology10 rockwallbibles.com on bonaface media grace and truth press grace and truth records. Yeah. So I'll say this is a, a genuine plug. If, if our listeners aren't familiar with Christ overall, I encourage them to be, um, obviously a lot of the things that you guys deal with are going to be coming from a, um, you know, fundamentally and admittedly Baptist perspective. Um, I find it so helpful. And if it have been encouraged by Christ overall over the years, um, so many of your articles I've shared frequently. So if you're not familiar with Christ overall, please check it out. Um, I also was, was just thinking through what you were talking about that it's, it's interesting again, the way these things track. So if you're to look at, for example, the, um, the, at least purported sex abuse, you know, crisis within the church and that spilling out, if you were to look at CRT and whether or not it was a helpful analytical tool to be utilized within the SPC, you could track these things within reformed denomination such as the PCA or the OPC. Um, and this doesn't take a whole lot of footwork. You can listen to some podcast, which there's been several, and I don't want to name any of them, but there's been several podcasts that have dealt with these sort of things and maybe patriarchal issues within these entities. And you will inevitably hear the SPC referenced and then in the very next breath, the PCA or the OPC or some other nape park church or a denomination. So these things, these things tend to track a lot. I also find it interesting because with the PCA, um, I serve, I serve within a church in the PCA, the PCA, for example, you know, you mentioned local churches, um, owning their own buildings. That's, that's the one, uh, unchangeable part of PCA standards that you cannot, uh, infringe upon a local church's right tone, their own building. And a lot of that has to do with what has happened within the mainline denominations. Um, PCA, they, they, they describe it as grassroots, but there's a lot of, again, not to minimize the differences. There's obvious differences, but there's a lot of kind of grassroots respect and, uh, support for local church. I don't want to say autonomy, but local church doing local church, each, each church kind of charting their own path to a certain extent, with a confessional bounds and all that. But um, now that's, that's interesting. So you mentioned, you mentioned, by the way, the guys in, in Moscow, coming out and having their, their documentary and everything like that. What was the, what was the genesis of that as far as you can tell? Yeah, I'm not quite sure why they were wanting to do that. I mean, if I were to take a guess at it, there was some leftover material of the work that they were helping with founders in 2019. And it is a cautionary tale. What has happened in the Southern Baptist Convention as a cautionary tale, uh, for all evangelical institutions for all denominations today. Uh, it certainly is helpful for those who are willing to listen to it objectively. In the SBC to recognize these were real problems that were there. And a lot of it came through bad decisions from leaders, leaders who were steered. And, and a few Russell Moore being at the forefront of this, uh, who were, uh, leading the SBC falsely and trying to, to put things into practice into place, uh, that have turned out to be destructive. And so for those who don't know SBC at this current hour has had to pay 10 million, 13 million dollars, uh, in legal fees because they gave up attorney client privilege, uh, which was foolhardy. There were certainly some, not a large number, but a significant number in the SBC who were saying that this was a terrible idea. And yet it kind of deceived the messengers to, to give that away in the executive committee, then went with that and those who are in that organization who are standing against that, I've mentioned many of them, um, stepped down from the board as a result of it. But because of that, and then hiring a guidepost solutions, which was, uh, in organization that did not have Christian convictions and that came out as they were celebrating, uh, in June a couple of years ago, uh, LGBTQ, uh, things. That was given to them to do that. And at the front, the forefront of all that was someone by the Rachel Downholender, uh, who has definitely, uh, had many hats to wear. So you can watch the, uh, the documentary and the part that she plays like there certainly seems to be a number of conflicts of interest that are taking place there. And the end result is that people, churches, uh, grandmothers in the pews who are giving, you know, their tie dollars to their churches to then give to SBC millions of those dollars, uh, that were used for the purpose or given for the purpose of missions and training ministers are now having to pay legal fees. Yeah. And so it gets spun to say we have to be, you know, to, to honor of the commitments we've made. And there's a place to be said for that. But man, it breaks the trust of the convention when those dollars have been used in those ways. Yeah. Yeah. I remember early on at seminary, a professor was, was speaking about that and just the importance of remembering when you play around with a church budget and, or, uh, discounts at the denominational level as well that you need to remember, there's, there's a lady, uh, whose husband has passed away, who is one of those widows that the church is called to care for and take care of and on a very limited budget with very strict guidelines. She is, she's giving to that. It's, it's an important stewardship conversation to have. Um, it's funny. Two year mentioning, or I guess I'm, we were mentioning the documentary they came out and there was that quote on there about, um, uh, more, um, Beth Moore. And I came, or I came, I can't remember now on the fly. I should have done my research before we started recording. Was that Russell Moore that made the comment about an SBC that did not have a place for Beth Moore is not going to have a place for a lot of us? I don't remember who I think he said that. Uh, I know that was certainly his sentiment and even his change sentiment because I mean, when I was a student at Southern Seminary, uh, he was definitely not, uh, a supporter of Beth Moore. Yeah. As things went along, he's certainly changed his tune. It's, it's interesting. So like, I, I don't know, and maybe you can walk us through maybe just some of the topics that Christ over all is tackling, maybe give like a little bit of a, um, a preview. But do you get the sense that the SBC has changed in that regard? Because for a while, the SBC was most certainly a place for Beth Moore. I know many people and again, this is not to completely unathematize anybody, but it is just to recognize a lot of people really enjoyed, for example, one of her Bible studies at one point in their life. Maybe didn't pay attention to some of the other things that she was saying or, or more importantly not saying and then deleting out of her books and, um, it now at least seems that Beth Moore, she's not in the SBC, but also doesn't feel like the SBC would be a place for her and views the, the denomination is having sort of moved in a, uh, in a direction. Do you, do you get that sense of change within the SBC or is it still a question mark in your mind? Yeah, I mean, so there's definitely been change over the last 20 years or so. I mean, even Vody Bachum would tell the story of how he went to Beth Moore, because she was not being received by, um, lifeway at one time. And so he was encouraging them to publish her. And this was around 2000 or so when you would see Vody Bachum and Beth Moore with John Piper and Louis Gieglyl all preaching at one day in 2000, right? So very different day when you go back and look at that lineup of speakers there. But along the way, I mean, Beth Moore certainly did change. I think the sex abuse crisis, and as we see, she was a large part of that with speaking to those things and is now at an Anglican church and still teaching in those ways. So I haven't kept up with all the details that are there, but she has changed. And the Southern Baptist Convention has changed too. And part of that is, you know, our month, I can talk about some of the different articles that we're trying to kind of highlight these things, but in the piece that I've written, recognizing there's been a way that different groups in the SBC have come to the forefront, planting churches or doing missions or or training pastors and things like that. They're still inside of the SBC, but they're also kind of doing their own thing within the SBC, which is fundamentally different than the cooperation that would have been there 20, 40 years ago to be able to do all of our education together, all of our missions together. Now you have churches that are giving line items to certain, one example might be the pillar network, which is a church planting network inside the Southern Baptist Convention. You have to be a Southern Baptist church in order to be a part of that, at least if you're in America. And yet, many churches that are directing their funds to that organization for church planting instead of the cooperative program. And so there's just been changes that are taking place there. And I really think that just as in 1925, the SBC decided on the cooperative program for their giving strategy for the future, we're really at a point again to say, what's our giving strategy now? How will 47,000 churches, 14 million people or so in those churches, continue to cooperate together? And I think that's a live issue and a real large question that needs to be answered. I think if I was apt to investigating this, there's probably an article that could be written just along the lines of the cooperative program, because people, you say that people vote with their feet. People also show where their heart is with their checkbook. And this is something that passed orally, you know, you would encourage congregants to consider giving and tithing in regards to we show where our priorities are, quite frequently with where our funds go. My little anecdotal evidence from just who I know who's within the SBC, I wonder if there has been a significant down tick within cooperative giving. And I wonder if that's traceable to some of the things you're bringing up. But let me let me do this because we had a soft lead in David, all on me, my fault. I'm going to ask you to maybe lead in here in just a second with one of the more poignant directions or topics or things that Christ overall is going to be addressing. But first, let me mention two of our sponsors very briefly. First steadfast cigars has been a long standing partner with escotology matters. We're grateful for them. So I'd encourage you to check them out. But also since David Schrock and I are talking about biblical fidelity and commitment to scripture, I would encourage you to check out Rockwall Bibles. Rockwall Bibles builds heirloom quality custom Bibles. They use fine premium cow hide and goat skin leathers that you won't find and mass produced Bibles. Each one's handcrafted. You can customize nearly every detail from the leather type and stamping to page edges and liners. I will give personal testimony. That's true. And they will respond to your email and customize it. They're a family-owned business and the Ozarks. Adam comes from a background in engineering and he brings precision and top tier quality to every Bible. I would encourage our listeners if you're thinking about a new Bible or if you have a family member, for example, my dad had his Bible rebound and it's one of those old tattered but very meaningful and sentimental in a good way Bibles. It's got all of his notes and his highlights. They can give you a new Bible build or they can customize one of those old ones and preserve your Bible. Follow Rockwall Bibles there on Instagram, Facebook. You can check them out at rockwallbibles.com. Get a deposit in there. Just a good plug for a good company. We do appreciate their work and their partnership. But Dave, leave me into maybe something poignant that somebody may be interested in the state of the SPC that Christ overall is covering in this coming month. Yeah, it's been interesting. As an editor, it's always a joy to see how month comes together. We're putting in different articles of different places. This month has actually been a tremendous surprise. I think we have good quality at the writing that's taking place there. But this month we've just had one home run after another. It's hard to just look at one. But I would say today, so we're recording this on March 25th, the Josh Abitoy, longtime Southern Baptist. He's involved with the American Reformer, wrote a piece on leadership in the SPC. He pulls on a German, I can't remember what the person actually did. But Michelle's law or Michael's law, he talks about, it has the idea that in any organization, there's a way in which a democratic organization is going to ultimately move towards something of an oligarchy. There's going to be a small group of people who have the knowledge, who have the authority, who have the place to be able to lead things. And he makes the case of how there's really been kind of three different phases over the last, let's say, two generations from the moderate institutionalists that led into the conservative resurgence to now the cultural engages. And that is really who has been at the forefront. So a cultural engage, or we might think of a Timothy Keller, but the SPC, some of like a JD Greer. And that's really been at the forefront of how the organization of the SPC has been led. And what that means is that instead of you really do have insiders and outsiders in the SPC. So, Josh, you can describe the fact that you're not an insider in the SPC, but as someone inside the SPC, I wouldn't describe myself as an insider in the SPC. And I would say there are vocal conservatives who are just faithful pastors in the SPC, someone like a Mike Law, who people might know of the law amendment in the Southern Baptist Convention, or red burns, who is brought forth motions for financial transparency. I say these are just vocal conservatives who are wanting to do good in the convention. And yet the structure of the convention is really working against them to bring about any sort of change. Sometimes this is known as the platform against those who are just kind of in the pews or at some point, but he does a really good job. Josh Abertoy does, I've just kind of laying out that dynamic. And why that matters so much is that unless that relationship between those in leadership and those who are kind of active in the convention is worked out, it's only going to proliferate the lack of trust that is there because it feels as though the voices of the conservatives who are wanting to see good change are just never heard. And their ideas and actions are just continue to put aside. So that's a really important piece that is really getting at this entire month. It's not just doctrine that we're looking at, but it really is how does this denomination, how does the convention of churches in the SPC work together for the good of missions and education? Yeah. And there's so many, you know, the SPC to PCA, they all have a national conference at which it's just kind of one of those flash points and coming together as the whole the whole the the whole the denomination. Although I know there's many in the SPC who would say it's not a denomination. I understand the objection. And there's this one moment though, just you know, you're talking about the platform. I think for many of us who have been involved in those circles for years, one of those poignant moments was a brother from the floor. And he was asking about the erection of a mosque and the support of one of the lobbying wings of the SPC. And very in my in my estimation, very humble and measured language asking how this could be how this could be a good thing for the SPC or for its wings to do. And the response from the platform, it was it was just shocking. It was one of those again, to me, it was a very watershed moment of seeing those on the platform saw themselves as quite divorced. And like you said, quite oligarchically divorced from those who were laboring within churches and not necessarily trying to be rabble razors, but trying to ask very meaningful ethical questions and getting very little and by way of response. So it's good to it's good to hear that the article is coming out on that sort of dynamic. Yeah. And just to clarify, so Southern Bappes are not building mosques or giving money towards mosques, but there was an amicus brief that was filed by the Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission to support religious liberty that included the building of mosques. It was a New Jersey or something like that. And Russell Moore is the one who fielded that question. And in a very condescending and snarky way, just basically, basically put this man, this faithful pastor, and Arkansas in his place. And the thing about it in the moment, I think I was at that convention was that everyone kind of was cheering with Russell Moore, but with the high, high on set, it's like, actually, this man had a very good question. And as we see this more and more in our own country, especially things taking place in New York City today with Mayor Mondami there and all the rest, it's like, like, we do need to think more carefully about that. And that was just showing the kind of condescension that was taking place in that moment. Right. No. Yeah. Well, well noted and clarified, I appreciate that. Yeah. What are what are their topics on the on the slate? Because one of the things with Christ overall that I've appreciated, you guys are able to enlist various voices and really pull in a pretty wide variety of guys to speak on some of these issues and write articles. What else is in what else is cooking? Yeah. I mean, so if anyone would go to our website, carstoverval.com, they would find the podcast that we're doing. And that includes this month, conversations with Clint Presley, Josh Powell and Willie Rice. So Clint Presley is the current president of the SBC. And then if all things go according to plan, it will either be Josh Powell or Willie Rice, or the two leading candidates for that position that will be voted on in June in Orlando. And so we've had conversations with them. And so the future of the SBC doesn't depend entirely on the individual president, but it does kind of give a flavor for where things are going. And you can hear some distinctions between Josh Powell and Willie Rice. I've gotten to know Willie recently. I've known Josh for 20 years. And again, they're both faithful Southern Baptist, but their vision of what is needed and where it needs to go is not the same. And so you can kind of hear that. But both of them, and this would be true for Clint Presley as well, would recognize there really has been a loss of trust in the SBC. Trust for the leaders, trust among one another, even just the way that certain, again, you get to the CRT issues and the sex abuse crisis, all of that, there's been a loss of trust. And so there needs to be action steps taken to restore that. And in one way that that should take place is with the trustees that oversee and give accountability for or make sure there's accountability for all the entities in the SBC. So the entities in the SBC would include the seminaries, would include the mission boards, would include a life way, other things like that. And so this trustees have a duty as one of our articles by John Whitehead outlines. They have a duty for care, a duty for loyalty, and a duty for candor. And to highlight one piece of that is that there really hasn't been trustees who are able to speak freely and candidly to ask questions and to kind of challenge what the leaders have been doing in those institutions. And so it has been more trustees who are champion and cheerleading what is going on, almost kind of in a PR way, rather than actually giving accountability. And he gets into the details of that. But that's something that is needed. There needs to be a kind of reformation of the trustee system in the Southern Baptist Convention. And I talk about that in my article as well, which would be the long form that comes out today of three changes that will be needed in the SBC. One of them has to do with leadership and those who are leading another with the trustees. And then a third, I think there's a time and a place now to consider the organization and how the convention is able to walk together. And so John Whitehead's piece would be highlighted there. My piece as well would be a part of that. Okay, that's good. And by the way, just as an anecdote before I lead into a more serious question, what traction persists and is extant with great commission baddests? I recall a quite widespread PR campaign in years past, it was great commission on, we were afraid we were at the wrong convention, but any traction on the name change. I don't think so. No article coming out. It's crushed over there. I mean, in some ways, I think it was partly done because the SBC is larger than just the Southeast region of our country. But I also think it was coming out and kind of emphasized at a time when there was kind of a sense of guilt by association that there's a way of looking down upon those in the South. There certainly it's bringing to the forefront the history of the SBC, which does include a, you know, the reason why it began was because certain missionary endeavors in 1845 would not be supported by Northern Baptist if there was anyone who had slaves at that time. So there is that history that is there. And so it seems as though there was some push for great commission to get away from any stigma of the South. But I don't think that's been pushed forward. And part of that again is the issues of COT and DEI are not as popular today as they were five and ten years ago. So maybe that's been part of it. But I don't think we'll hear great commission Baptist at least not at this convention. No big traction. That's fine. Yeah, that here is to the great commission, by the way, something I appreciate from Southern Baptist. I appreciate it from the PCA. It's one of our three foundational pillars is faithfulness to the great commission. But yeah, it is interesting as somebody myself claiming from the deep South, you're from Davout, I would refer to as the fake South, which is Virginia. But listen, I live in Northern Virginia, which is neither Virginia, any more in any historical sense, or the South, my, my son, when just to get off topic for a second, my son who has lived the last 10 years here, he's 17 now, we're trying to argue with some people from Tennessee and Alabama that he was from the South. He's like, no, no, you're not. It's still a spot. Not the South at all. And even the demographics of our Northern Virginia is less and less American today too. Yeah. Yeah, unfortunately, yeah, I see that. See, we were from, we were from a region of the deep South that would have rejected Kentucky is not being sufficiently Southern, but that's not there here nor there. No, I wonder, I wonder because this was a topic that had come up. And this is what I'm trying to get to is like confessionalism and the identity of a confessional document. I'm thinking of the BF&M, and maybe you can walk people into that a little bit, but BF&M 2000, the Baptist faith and message, there has been, I would suspect a long, long debate over whether that's a confessional document, to what extent that it binds, Baptist, again, Baptist and Presbyterians have a different approach to these things, the way we approach, or at least the way Presbyterians are supposed to approach confessional standards and the binding nature of confessional standards is somewhat strong, I wouldn't say rigid, but it's somewhat strong or again at least it is supposed to be. Baptist have typically had sort of a caution in embracing something that seems, as you mentioned earlier, something that seems to enforce rigidity from on high anywhere. They want to kind of preserve that local church autonomy, but I'm speaking too much. Walk me into that. Has there been, has there been much discussion on the BF&M and its status is either a confessional document or as a binding statement of faith, because a lot of these things, I was going to ask about missions a minute ago, but a lot of the things that I have read and kept up with regarding missions in the SPC seems to inevitably kind of circle back to this adherence to the BF&M and whether or not those ventures are in accordance with it, but walk me into that. Yeah, so it's a big conversation amongst Southern Bapis. In fact, last year, two years ago, Christ overall actually engaged that whole subject, talking about creeds, confessions, confessionalism and Baptist life, historically, Southern Baptist life. And I would certainly say that confessions have always been a part of Baptist life. So you go back to the 1689 or before that to the first London Baptist Confession, 1644, and you have some others along the way. I mean, you have the history of the New Hampshire Confession and then the Baptist faith and message was came in 1925 and then revisions do that. So it's actually always been a part of that. And so more recently, Southern Bapis have been debating on how tightly you have to affirm that. And in many ways, the Cooperative Program gave a functional association where you're sharing money, your pooling resources for the purpose of education and missions. And there had to be an affirmation that it's interesting the Cooperative Program and the Baptist faith and message came about in the same year in 1925. And so there has been an affirmation of those doctrine principles. Of course, in Southern Baptist life, you saw the liberal movement and the conservative resurgence that was trying to correct that in the 1980s. So there has been something that is there, but I would say in the last decade or so, it's been how tightly do you have to affirm that? And I think there are some different opinions on that. That certainly stands behind the question of if a church in the SBC has a female pastor, senior pastor, or has female pastors on staff, can they be disfellowshipped? That's been the whole point of the conversation with the law amendment. And again, it sounds like there will even be some churches that will be brought forward to the convention in Orlando because they do affirm female pastors on their staff. And so that's going to be have to be adjudicated because that is out of bounds with the Baptist faith and message. So I'm not sure that there is one totally agreed upon standard. There is some language on how Southern Baptist have to hold together, but even then, it's subject to interpretation and it's loose language that is there. I do think over the last, especially in the conservative resurgence and then the young restless and reformed movement that that did bring to the forefront a stronger understanding of confessionalism. And of course, you've also had for the last 40 years Founders Ministry, which has been strongly 1689 and has done good work to continue to promote a right understanding of confessionalism as well. So all that to be said, you have in the convention today different opinions to that. And I do think that that's an ongoing debate on how that will work itself out because there has been a kind of pragmatism that has brought the convention together more than kind of rigid doctrinal unity. But again, if you look at the history of Baptist, there has been a stronger sense of doctrinal association and even someone like E. K. LeMarelle who recently wrote the history of capital of Baptist in Washington, DC, wrote a piece for us two years ago, arguing for the fact that there was a way in which local churches used to hold one another accountable in ways that would be good to recover today. No, okay. No, that's helpful. And that's, you know, it's understandably unique to the SPC, but it's also not unique in so far as other denominations, the PCA, the Nape Park churches, many within the reformed world are used to this sort of ongoing tension of what, what subscription, what confessional description looks like. But what do you see because I want to be respectful of your time? And obviously there's lots of resources on Christ overall, like you've mentioned. What do you see encouraging in the SPC currently? I've mentioned missions, so I'll sneak that in as kind of a sub question on this. How do you, how do you, again, SPC has, you know, historically been very missionally minded and very committed to, especially to international missions and as well as national missions. But yeah, what do you see encouraging currently? Yeah, good question. In some ways, I mean, the whole reason that the SPC exists is for missions and kind of the axiom that we believe that we can do more together than we can by ourselves. But again, when it gets to be so large, I would dare say that there is kind of some inconsistency on the quality or the emphasis or the doctrine of those who are being sent out. It should be in keeping with that placid message. But again, even within that, there would be different views on ecclesiology. There would be different views on, you know, the doctrines of grace, all of that. So I think something else that is encouraging and I actually think this has, this is a change, but also a possibility for how the SPC could cooperate more together in the future. It has to do the way that you have some smaller, more direct ministries like a radius or reaching and teaching. So you use the example of reaching and teaching. This is a ministry that is doing a lot of work throughout the world and it's often Southern Baptist churches. Now in some ways, this is outside of the International Mission Board, but you have Southern Baptist churches who are participating in this and I think they're doing really, really good work. And what I'd love to be able to see is actually some of these smaller entities finding a way to continue to do that work where there's maybe tighter accountability, tighter doctrinal alignment, greater trust there. And then if you're actually to have a proliferation of those working together side by side, it wouldn't just be one and massive entity, but it would be almost like maybe I don't know my Boy Scout organization well enough, but I think it almost be like a Boy Scout jamboree where you have different troops that are working together, but then they'd come together to be able to celebrate or to encourage or to equip one another in those ways. Now that's different than the way that the SPC has functioned with the cooperative program in years past, but with all the fracturing that is there, I actually think that might be more sustainable and effective where we are today going forward than trying to continue to pull people back together that one, they're struggling to trust one another and two in some places they don't really agree or like one another. And so certainly there's an element of humility that needs to be taken place, but I do wonder if by those fractures you could actually galvanize a new way of cooperation going forward. Right. Now that's helpful. Would you count that then as a positive thing that you're optimistic about within the SPC as far as like looking to the future of the SPC? Because one of the things that I've noticed, there's been a lot of Twitter's not real life, but it's not real life, right? So there's a lot of guys that are kind of promoting a biblical localism or at least a focus on local efforts. And a lot of that I find very encouraging. I know over the years there's been there's been a lot of talk of reach and expansion. And there's also been sort of a neglect of the home front that my primary focus is not only to this church I serve in, but also the community that got us placed us in and then the wider community in our area of the state and then the greater state at large. So I have seen sort of, I don't know if I want to call it a retrieval, but sort of a missiological refocusing on the needs and the priority of the local to start where you are and then to expand accordingly. And again, I say that's a retrieval because I think that wasn't neglected, not just in SPC circles, but in many missional circles over the years. So I see that that seems to dovetail quite well with what you're referring to where there is a there's a knowledge of your neighbor, there is a there's a care for those in the community to which you've been placed. And yet then there also is this coming together for these larger missions, but it bears a different flavor maybe than how it's been presented in the past. Would you count that in general as a kind of positive or what other positives might you see? Yeah, I think it's more of just the nature of where things are today and that if we can actually, and again, this this is a challenge for Southern Baptist, we love big things. But actually to have more small things, I think would be more effective going forward. And so I think there's the potential for that, but it's kind of a change that the positive is is there could be great hope if we're willing to not kind of hold on to things in the past, but recognize where we are, what the needs are. And I too agree that there's something healthy and right about a kind of biblical or just a yeah, just a biblical localism that is there. And Michael Foster has done some writing on that. And again, the piece that I'm arguing for today that comes out, it's similar because I think when the Southern Baptist Convention was most healthy or at least maybe effective, there was a sense that every church was a part of a local association, a state convention and then the national convention. But today it's almost as if you have the local church and then the national convention. And I know there are some exceptions to that or some counter examples, but the more that we could actually gain trust at smaller levels, I think would then have a way of helping the larger convention to gain trust as well. Yeah, now that's helpful. I would also I would be remiss if I didn't plug Alex Cokman, who's a contributor here, he and Alex Cokman has a book out through founders and called Order to Love. Am I getting the telekorect? Yeah, he wrote a piece for us this month too. Right. So he is applying his order amorus to the needs in the SPC. Yep. Which is obviously not Alex's order amorus, but his retrieval of order amorus for sure. I would also recommend there needs to be a retrieval of a biblical anthropology, I think, and kind of creational ontology. I don't know if there's any books that have been out by that, David, but if we could find something about is this we need to recover is this in some way. Now that's a catchy title. Yeah, no check out David's book, The Business of Isness, which was phenomenal and and accessible out through founders as well founders putting out a lot of good books. A lot of good books. Yeah, absolutely. Way to go for the Florida boys. Any closing thoughts or anything to kind of add to this that you that you had on the mind, David? Yeah, I mean, I think it's good reminder that we should be praying for one another. Our church, we were talking before we started recording, kind of do more in our our liturgy. And part of that is more intentionality of praying for other local churches. We had done that kind of an ad hoc fashion, but we're being more systematic about that, making sure that we're praying for other local churches. That includes churches that are outside of this other Baptist convention. And so we want to pray for our PCA friends and certainly other denominations that are faithful to the gospel and we would recruit and solicit the prayers of others praying for the SPC that the Lord will continue to use. That's a nomination that convention of churches to bring the light of the gospel to the darkness. And a good word praying for one another. That was that was something that we've incorporated here as well as praying for sister churches that are laboring faithfully. I think it's an important reminder. So Dave Schrock, you're at, would you recommend people to keep up with you through the website? How can people keep up with you? Yes, sure. I mean, so on on X, David Schrock, you can find me there at Christoverall.com. That's where all the materials are. And as I think I mentioned, trying to revamp my own website, DavidSchrock.com is there. And then if you're north of Virginia, come visit Aquaquan Bible Church, which is about 20 miles south of DC. Perfect. Christoverall, who will give EM a run for the money as far as having the tallest starting lineup in the podcast realm. You guys are a tall bunch over Christoverall. But Dave, likewise. Yeah, always great to talk to you, brother. Thanks for coming on. Thanks so much.