Today on the podcast for Cultural Reformation, we'll be discussing the last few clips that we have to share with you from Amfest 2025. Well, welcome back to the podcast for Cultural Reformation and Pastor Nate Wright, the Executive Director of Ezra Canada. I'm joined by my colleagues, Dr. Michael Tisen, out of the US, and Dr. Joe Boote, over in the UK. This is a ministry of the Ezra Institute where we work to engage culture with the claims of Christ, and equip current and emerging cultural leaders with Biblical worldview, Christian philosophy, and cultural apologetic studies through print and digital resources, conferences, and training programs. You're listening to one of our digital resources. This is the podcast for Cultural Reformation. And we're excited to be back to show these last clips. How are you guys doing, Joe? How is life across the pond? Well, it's a little bit damp right now over here. We've had non-stop rain for a couple of weeks, which is not all that unusual for February, but we're seeing quite a bit of flooding, but it's given me an opportunity to get some overdue writing done before travel kicks back in with some of the questions. I'm actually having a very productive February, so thankful for it. Awesome. And Michael, down in the frozen tundra of Kentucky, are you guys thought out yet after that giant storm that saw us stranded in Miami for a little while? Well, actually, Nate, I'm closer to your neighborhood this week. I've been up here in Canada, back home, ministering to my aging father. He's a dialysis patient who was struggling with an infection. So we've been in the hospital with him for 15 days. And I've been up here for the last seven or eight of them. And just learning lessons on caring for your parents and at a different stage of life and serving your parents. And I think that the serving your parents in a different way, stuff that they would have done for us as children and really taking care of us when we were so dependent. So I've had it a bit of a, I've been a bit of an emotional week where I feel really good to be here and help out. Seeing dad at this situation, we've been reading scripture and his faith is in Christ. And so his hope is secure. And so it's been great. But just coming out of that, we expect to get out of the hospital today. So just thought I'd come over here and talk to two of my good friends and enjoying looking forward to our talk together today. And of course, one of the unique things about our podcast and our ministry is that we're not just talking heads on a screen. Many of our followers and many of our friends who've supported the ministry have had the chance to meet us at conferences and at our in-person training sessions. So for all of you who know Michael well, certainly continued prayers for his family and for his father in particular would be most welcomed. We are in our last episode here where we're going to be going through TP USA footage. And of course, there's some great things to talk about. TP USA continues to kind of march on in terms of seizing this cultural moment. And there's some things that we can talk about even outside of the clips. They had the TP USA Super Bowl halftime show that we can talk about a little bit. It'll come up with one of our clips. An easy transition over there, but we want to kind of conclude by showing you some really exciting things about the cultural shift that's going on right now. And of course, TP USA is sort of at the center of it. And that's an exciting thing. So as a ministry that's spent the better part of two decades working towards cultural transformation. We are excited as imperfectly as it might be happening. We are really excited about this cultural shift and it's worth our time, our attention. And talking about so why don't we jump into the first clip here and I'll see what you guys think and we'll go from there. So so here we are in Phoenix, Arizona. It's the last day of TP USA America Fest. What a morning we were able to watch Donald Trump Jr. address the nation through, you know, obviously there were 30,000 people in person and then addressing the nation as people watched online. We were able to see JD Vance, the vice president show up security titan significantly today. Roads were closed off and and and secret service took over security. So again, I think we've already mentioned that one of the themes that we've been excited about is how often Christ and how often God, the Christian God, not just general references, have been made at the conference. Tell me how you felt about that today as we were watching the final speakers all the way from Tom home and all the way to the vice president. Yeah, I think that the it isn't just one person. That's what's interesting. Right. It's been, as you said today in particular with Tom and then Trump Jr. And then Vance himself as the as the vice president each and every one of them were concerned to not just in that way we expected in the 80s and 90s of an American president to miss quote his favorite Bible verse. Right. Yeah. But this was clear and distinctive appeals to the Christian foundation of the nation and to there really only being a future for the nation and for Western civilization if we recovered that Christian heritage. I'm not saying you have to be a Christian to be an American. I'm saying something simpler and true. Christianity is America's greed. The shared moral language from the revolution to the civil war and beyond across that history. Our country's major debates have always centered on how we could best as a people please God. Now that's not saying that all of the the articulation of it was perfect or it was all consistent and coherent in in the way that with more development it could be. Right. But the foundations are very clearly there and what's what's unequivocal is that the landscape now has changed in America. There's no question about it. The the the catalyst for some of this was certainly the tragedy of the murder of Charlie Kirk. It's been a broader movement of course because in some respects Charlie's ministry court the wave as he was going into these university settings he was catching the hunger of the young people in the chaos of the culture for answers right. And this is it's it's remarkable what's happening in the West I was reading just this week that 60% of the Z generation even in the United Kingdom 60% are planning on attending Christmas services now and it's similar across the United States now this this shift that we're seeing. What's unique about America right now is that that shift is being publicly articulated and it's being articulated at the highest levels of political office the only thing that is truly served as an anchor of the United States of America is that we have been and by the grace of God we always will be a Christian nation. And you can't as a Christian you cannot help be excited about that because it feels as though for many people especially organizations like us and there are a number in the United States who've been plugging away for years and years and years behind the scenes identifying the issues talking about the need for a return to Christian culture the need for identification of crisis not just vague references to God but to the carpenter from Nazareth as JD Pans referred to it was the fact. The carpenter died 2000 years ago and changed the world in the process getting away from that sort of vagary in general sense that we are you know Judeo Christian land to the importance of the person of Christ the work of the cross the kingship of the Lord Jesus Christ and his moral order and the necessity of recovering that moral order for the nation as a whole for our culture and to be as an event where you've got 30 years. And so we have a lot of people in person millions more watching online the largest conservative movement in America probably in American history. So it's a shock full of young people and the comfort itself in person was about 50% women 50% men young men and to see this this degree of passion and enthusiasm we can we can't but say this is a great starting point right we we're not saying we're right turning point it's a turning point absolutely and it's a starting point and the and this recognition of a need for a public articulation of America as a Christian nation rooted in the gospel the necessity of Christ. And the importance of his word yeah you can't help be if you love the Lord truly you can't help be excited. Yeah that's great Nate I am so glad that we're we're reviewing this a little bit because that is exciting to rewatch and I immediately think Joe back to when we were watching JD Vance and we were listening saying man he probably only needed to change the way he's doing it. He's only needed to change nine words and that whole thing to make his speech coherent there were there were some incoherent spots in consistent spots but not very much and to say boldly that the creed of America is the Christian creed that is so exciting. And to to punt it over to you Joe just because we've just come out of the Super Bowl season and the sea hawks destroyed unfortunately. When people are outside of this and Nate you should comment on this too when people are outside and they're not really listening you might try to deny that there is a cultural shift happening. But if you're just listening a little bit i'll just end with what we just said there you can't help being excited about this shift. Yeah well I actually wrote an article last week in which I picked up on a few of those things as I was reflecting on the need for biblical nationhood and Christian culture and how we articulate it how we would argue for it what would be the centerpiece of what we're saying when we talk about a Christian country. And I had the opportunity again there to refer to these signs that we're seeing and as you say Michael you do have to pay a little bit of attention so I was telling a Christian community this week about the 2025 last year study. There was published by the Bible Society in Britain that was talking about this they caught they've been calling it the quiet revival where we're seeing this massive increase in young people especially the Z generation coming back to church. This is not because there's been a new downloadable seeker friendly package that is now available to churches that if you run this course if you do this if you bring in St Paul's trampoline act you're going to start filling the filling the churches again. It's been nothing to do with any of that all of that all the church growth movements and all of this seeker friend all of that kind of stuff that people have been putting their hope in for such a long time that hasn't worked the you know the youth movements the whole thing that I grew up in the youth the youth movements of the 80s and 90s that failed to retain the younger generation in the church has been happening spontaneously. Interestingly in a context where as the as our institute is observed for some time we are in and actually let's not forget guys in the early days we were laughed at. That we were in a decaying culture that the nation was falling away that we were heading towards if something didn't shift, vulcanization. When you think about the legislative change in Canada over the last even the last 10 15 years that has been so dramatic were on the verge still of criminalizing the other elements of the of the Christian faith even maybe criminalizing passages of scripture and to suddenly see. Among the younger generation this move back to ward the Christian heritage because they're looking at a failed culture they're living it they're living through it they're living in it failed marriages failed families failed communities criminality. The massive debt load the corruption in government all of these different things and they're saying well whatever my parents generation were doing it's not working so how do we reach back beyond that and so so actually as you said kind of listening back to that chat we were having on the I'm so glad we had fly press with us to do these recording so that we could kind of capture something of the most. And as we went up onto our own little mountain there near where we were staying it's a beautiful spot there actually in in Phoenix which by the way I think doing Christmas and Phoenix is far more biblical and it just felt like I was in a I just want to see palm trees from now on at Christmas I've decided that in my life I think it's I don't have to be in Jerusalem but. We were we were kind of back in the cold for Christmas but it but I know what you mean it was in the those few days leading up and it was it definitely is a different experience being in that kind of climate for for the Christmas period but just hearing again even those segments from JD vances talk. And to pick out the fact that you know I wasn't just joking because about the you know previous US presidents because it was just very very common and very typical. 10 years ago 20 years ago to be listening to people like Bill Clinton. Our goal you know presidential candidates and presidents you know citing their favorite verse from the Bible getting it wrong and having these very vague generic appeals to God. To a shift to this very distinctively Christian confession and that's what you know we've been talking about for a very long time as a ministry that it isn't a Christless conservatism a Bible less republicanism is not going is insufficient it's not going to work I won't it's not going to move the needle and I'm glad we also cave at it in saying that you know we're not seeing this as an endpoint. This is just a positive starting point right in the context where even two years ago we were talking about. Both potential bulk andization in America which is still remains a possibility and we've got top academics here talking about in the UK and the coming civil war. With with all that kind of instability and tension around us this seems to me to be a very very encouraging starting point in shift that is been worked by the Lord. As I say not because of some technique that you've been we've been sold about how which Michael you know better than anyone or you should do haven't been in one of those church planting folks for a long time. You know involved in blaming me or just. Well because we were all we all of us here have been involved in you know on this call involved in pitch planted in Toronto and. Before it was you know sexy with the guys in skinny jeans and thick rim glasses and all of that you were sexy when you did it by. But yeah something altogether different. But you know what I'm saying this seems to have been a spontaneous. Work that the Lord has been doing and people gradually. Waking up so I said enough i'll throw it back to you guys well I want to go to Nate Nate because I know that you were going to host us but now I've taken over because I love this talk. Nate go to go to the thinking about that what Joe was just talking about how you used to see kind of lefty politicians you know the moderate still quote scripture it seems now part of the cultural shift is that. Now you're seeing the hard left do the misquoting of scripture because they feel that that's the only way that they're going to appeal. To the to the Christian vocabulary so right now you know the conversations about ice in Minnesota you know you got people standing there saying love thy neighbor. And you know if you were on the ground with them there wouldn't be another Christian slogan said or another understanding of scripture said. So even that is a cultural shift where now the left is feeling like they have to appeal. To scripture there of course miss they're they're not applying it correctly they're misapplying it. um are you experiencing that on the ground me. Yeah for sure I would say that Canada and the UK unfortunately so this our ministry is obviously. Working hard to disciple the nations and we see this this momentum i think Joe used the term you know catching the wave. And we're seeing this momentum in the states trying not to look at it with envy but looking at it as a. Possibility of how is this going to affect Canada how is it going to affect the UK. Like it or not America is sort of a catalyst for the rest of the world and so we're looking at this. Right now I think what we're seeing in Canada is actually pushback we saw this a little bit with the whole elbows up Mark carney versus Donald Trump stuff. And a lot of Christians are feeling an apprehension to jump on board with what's going on in the states unfortunately. And now obviously i've been involved with the esoteric institute for quite a number of years now. And so this is you know we're able to kind of look at this rightly um but I guess you know what the the thing that i'm thinking about now is. um Some of those clips that fly press pulled out of JD vances and i would encourage our listeners to go and listen to the whole thing. It was super encouraging because as you you guys already said it's it's these aren't vague platitudes to kind of pay homage to you know a nameless deity. This is specific discussion about the Lord Jesus Christ. I mean when when the vice president of the United States gets up and says. Yeah sorry. That's the vice president of the United States gets up and he says you know america's foundation and future are tied to our Christian confession. That's an exciting moment. And so I guess you know we should take the last few minutes that we have in this particular section here and talk about. What should Christians do with this apprehension because there's obviously always a ditch on both sides right there's the the temptation to think that we've arrived. This is the golden age we're in the millennial kingdom now because JD vance said this and then there's the the ditch on the other side is to feel this apprehension about what should politicians really be speaking like this is that their job. And I would just actually point back to the church's job is the church's job to disciple the nations. And so this is where the Ezra Institute and truth exchange and some of these faithful ministries that have been doing this for so long have an opportunity. We now have the ear of politicians who recognize that the future of their nation is tied to the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ the carpenter from Nazareth. And so this is a moment not for the church to start debating whether or not a political conference should have this stuff. This is a cultural moment where the church has to say now what is our role as the royal priesthood is the as the nation of priests that are now meant to stand. And correct some of those nine words that we saw inconsistencies in so Michael I love for you I mean pastoral you're in this unique position where you're coming from Canada you're now settled in the US and you're pastoring in this cultural moment. I would love for you to take the last couple of minutes to kind of just talk very practically about how should Christians. Who are on the ground who are having these conversations how can we think rightly about the the church's role to disciple the nations. And and how should we react when you know these these high profile politicians say things that are 99% right. How should we breathe life into what they're saying and how should we gently bring correction what should the dialogues around the water coolers at church around the coffee bar at church what should they look like. Yeah I wrote a few notes just while Joe was talking and while you were commenting there I think the very if we were to say what's the so what. You know what what can people take away I think the first lesson here is we need to speak clearly about Christ and about history I think historical references that demonstrate the power of the gospel and how it is the Lordship of Christ and and the word of the Lord that transforms culture and government and and it requires us to be clear about that to be very important. Very very clear and I think that's what Joe you know even when Joe says we've been doing this for 20 years you know Joe's been doing it for 20 years and you and I have joined him joined him for a bunch of that journey but this is the strength of this idea of thinking Christianly that Joe has been leading the charge on so speak clearly about Christ and speak clearly about the power of the gospel in history. And then I think the second part would be listen to what's going on and be willing to be discerning about it I was going through Matthew we're doing it we're teaching through Matthew and I was reminded again how the Pharisees so often just weren't concerned about the truth. They they every they did interact with Jesus and they were immediately just trying to figure out how they could superficially maneuver and manipulate and they really didn't acknowledge the truth and that's been the church's problem when Joe's talking about secret sensitivity and everything like that everyone's trying to massage things and manipulate it rather than what is the truth. So listen to what's going on and then being able to discern about that. This episode of the podcast for cultural reformation is brought to you by the Ezra Foundations curriculum. The Ezra Foundations curriculum equips churches small groups and Christian educators with a clear biblical worldview for all of life rooted in scripture and aligned with the theology of the Ezra Institute. It's designed to help participants think Christianly about family education politics culture and more. Each curriculum kit includes full access to the Ezra Foundations video courses featuring Dr. Joe boot, Pastor Nate Wright and Dr. Michael Tisen along with 10 printed participant guides and a comprehensive leaders guide for group facilitation. Learn more and get started today at EzraMedia.tv slash Foundations. Now back to the show. I think that's great Michael and I think that the bringing in the Pharisees and how they reacted to their cultural moments is a really important lesson for us. You remember that one of the things that Jesus chastised the Pharisees about the most was you can read the sky as you know when a storm is coming but you don't understand the cultural moment that you're living in. And the last thing that we want to do is Christians is fail to see clearly the cultural moment we're in and fail to understand what our place is in this cultural moment. So let's continue with another clip from the TPUSA MFEST stuff that we have for you and I think this will get into a conversation about what is this cultural moment and how can we do it? Well, some people can help. This is going to lead to the next part of our discussion. So already online you've got some some in the Christian community already pointing at some of the inconsistencies and saying see see it's not really as exciting as people are making it out to be particularly you know we haven't mentioned that Erica Kirk brought on a female rapper and that interview it seemed as we're watching. We're trying to figure out where this place is in with all of the other things we've heard and then even with JD Vance with some of the things within that speech I know that you and I went away and we said here's the opportunity for the Ezra Institute with an organization like TPUSA with an organization like other ministries like you said that I'm plugging away to help with again some of these inconsistencies. I want to say to anybody who's a naysayer like just cool it we've got to disciple some people the starting point the turning point is there the hard work of discipleship in the midst of movement continues and that's what we're excited about and we. Paul even had to say to Timothy think over what I say so that the Lord will give you understanding and everything and don't forget we're at this event although we know i've come with a with a message about the Lordship of Christ and the Kingdom of God. This is a political event and and they're also trying to galvanize young people to engage politically and so yeah they brought in some celebrity Christians who are talking about their faith and their baptism and and and where you could say well. Is that person's public witness fully consistent what we know that that that's not going to be the case across the board right yeah. And we and they were brought in today particularly because this female rapper has been speaking up about christian about christians and i hear you look at what is being done to christians all around the world. Even there we have to give her credit for that because before whatever the inconsistencies how many other people in the public space in the public eye have been concerned to call out and and and make a public issue of the persecution the killing the rape the brutalization of christian people in Nigeria. That has been largely ignored by by by most of the media if those people were any other group any other minority group it would be absolutely front and center because they're Christians it doesn't get there so even there one has to give credit where it's due and say you know in the same way that the way that jk rowling in in Europe has called out the trans issue in a way that christian leaders should have been doing and they haven't. Well in this instance we've got people with a public voice actually using it to draw attention to that and so let's not we can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. That's um no that's a that's a really profound statement that you said at the end Joe that's kind of where I made a few notes but I think this is a good place to start. Obviously during covid there was the the kind of cultural moment and we saw many countries around the world pick up on this moment when the Canadian truckers went to Ottawa for the the protest in Ottawa and one of the things that I remember the three of us lamenting you know when the when the mic mics weren't recording was you know how much different would this have looked if those were the pastors instead of the truckers. And so you're talking about you know Nicki Minaj there speaking up when so many Christian leaders and pastors have failed to do so and I think you know really what we have to look at is you know God will cause the the rocks to cry out if his people fail to give him praise and so he's using imperfect vessels and look Erica Kirk is an imperfect vessel Nicki Minaj is an imperfect vessel the Canadian truckers were an imperfect vessel but this is God raised. But this is God raising up those who maybe less qualified but who are actually willing to talk about the issues and I think that ultimately this leads us to a failure in the church to speak on cultural issues so why don't we start there I have a couple other notes that I'll direct our conversation within this segment but but why don't we start there what are your thoughts on that Joe. Well I think along with a lot of thinking Christians today when we hear quick and superficial criticism of people speaking up on issues like that because of perceived inconsistencies in their lifestyle message and so forth. And first of all we have to remember that we as an evangelical community have gone through in the last 10 or 15 years and almost endless string of public revelations about supposedly trustworthy faithful leaders in the public space who've been anything but who on the outside of looked as though the you know the piety and devotion was there. But what's actually been going on in some instances is people leading and living double lives so I think the first thing is judgment begins at the house of God so we should as you rightly point out and I asked the question where is the church and where should the church have been what what would have been the difference had it been 5000 pastors in their dog collars suits cassocks with wooden crosses in the center of Ottawa rather than you know a truck of convoy what kind of difference would have been made I think this is is partly the problem of pietism and you know let's not get into the whole Philip Yancey as a saga and scenario now but you know I think he's been the latest you know major figure within evangelical world in the last few months to now been exposed in a you know long term adulterous affair while married while preaching to others and it gets a little bit wearing it gets a little bit wearing some when you have something very positive being said by as you said in perfect vessels people may not be the most experienced or the most qualified but who are pointing up and pointing out things that the church should have been addressing publicly should have been speaking to and haven't been and haven't been and I think actually in the clip I mentioned of the example of J.K. Rowling in Britain for example the author of the you know the famous Harry Potter novels who's been one of the most public and effective voices on the so called trans issue and yet you don't hear church leaders in the public space to speaking to that with very very few exceptions in the United Kingdom you almost hear nothing publicly on the issue it's it's swimmers and Olympians and children's book writers who are saying hang on a minute is anybody else recognizing that the Empress got no clothes and that that I think it's it's all it's frustrating is discouraging when there's sort of it is a fraction reflection of piety is because piety is basically says what matters is really your internal life your internal existence your personal piety how that piety you know frankly how that piety appears to others but actually public law politics these things just aren't really that important so when somebody who made we don't like their music or we are not impressed with their with the consistency of their witness says something actually it's true and important we want to leave on that leap on their character rather than actually saying what actually what they said here is true and it's important that we recognize that is true and support that the fact that Christians are being persecuted and brutalized and murdered and raped in their own churches in Nigeria and the media isn't talking about it and most Christians aren't talking about it because well you know you don't want to be as amphobic and yet somebody is prepared to say it and yet we're not supportive of that so we we of course have to be careful who we platform we have to be wise about who we profile who we give public voice to there's a difference between you speaking at something being asked to address an issue and who you invite to speak you're of evidence we've said this is a political this is not a Bible conference and that let's just let's just remind ourselves of that too this isn't this isn't a Bible because this isn't a family Bible camp this is a political conference of the largest gathering of of conservative people many human or Christians who are at this event and so I think is sort of Michael put it earlier it's it's about cheering those things that that need cheering because we as a church have as we look at our own witness over the the last 20 years or so publicly we've been largely a disgrace and we can't make the perfect the enemy of the good when when the slave trade was abolished by William Wilberforce and his clap and sect and those who worked with him in Britain it started the it wasn't finally abolished at the very end of his life the first step towards abolition was a technicality actually in the law and regarding the flags under which ships could sail and it was a kind of a sneaky way of dealing the first blow to the to the slave trade and it took many years that it was completely abolished and then of course many many more years that was abolished throughout the the empire but we could but it would have been it wouldn't have been a strong point to say hang on William that doesn't seem like a very sound fully Christian thoroughly biblical approach to me this is just a legal technicality well yeah but it's movement in the right direction and so I think we have to be ready to be realistic bit of the critical of things that are said publicly that aren't right but praise those things that said publicly that are right and not make some kind of false pioistic perfectionism the enemy of those things which are good and and worth hearing and worth repeating. yeah that's actually a really great transition because you kind of talked about pioitism and speaking of pioitism I think it's worth while having a conversation obviously we just saw clips of Erica Kirk with Nicki Minaj on stage. Joe and I aren't super familiar with her I know her songs are littered around your playlists Michael so I want to punt this over to you a little bit but but this does bring up so Nicki Minaj is is a rapper and just recently tpu say actually had a halftime show that apparently 5 million people view during halftime as opposed to watching you know a gay communist entertain the masses on the actual super bowl halftime show many people tuned into tpu say and actually we had a little bit of a conversation about this before the mic's got turned on and you gave me a bit of a software but for this where I kind of said you know I thought it was a bit of a swing and a miss I there was some things about it I didn't like and I got kind of nitpicky and you kind of rebuked me I think rightly because what one thing that the as an institute is talked about for a long time is the Lordship of Christ over all areas which is why during covid we talked about God's law as as it relates to medicine and public policy and politics but there's also a Christian way to do arts and and the church for many many centuries actually led the way in terms of art and architecture and literature and that's largely been lost with the rise of pionism so why don't you take a minute Michael to maybe talk about this moment where we're also seeing as part of this turning point as part of this cultural shift is art trying to be reclaimed for the glory of God and I think that's something that tpu say was trying to do at the super bowl so talk a little bit maybe about you know the ways this spins out into other areas of culture not all of our listeners are going to be politically savvy and think that they can speak to this cultural political moment but this spins out into everything including art so I want to pass it over to you. Okay well let me stay on the point that Joe was making and then I'll apply it to art because I think that so we've talked a little bit about how in the past this pionism has been a problem. I'll give you a contemporary ish I'll give you a contemporary example of how this is going on in my life right now. So we have a politician in Kentucky who is willing to table an equal rights protection bill in in Kentucky and we know that at least three establishments in Kentucky that are pro life have privately acknowledged that they have stood in the way of this bill because they just don't think the culture is ready. And so here you have a politician who looks to the expert lobbyist Christian lobbyist group and is meeting opposition and then as Joe was talking about which is so common and then you look to the church and there's just this void of people to support you. And so as local pastors we've been saying look we have to change this behavior it's not enough for us to talk about the problems of the past but we actually have to change the behavior where the church becomes the moral voice to say yes this is good you have our blessing you have our support you have our voices we will join you. Because as we would teach at the as institute it's not the pastor's job to be the politician it's the pastor's job to help influence and support and rebuke and teach incorrect the politician as they live out their life. And so even this week we were talking about crafting a statement and I encourage the group to use to use ruler of kings Joe. As a as a starting point to start looking at you know what is something where a bunch of pastors could sign and say this is what a politician should be doing these are the things a politician we this is what we expect of Christian politicians. So that if you just take that over to the arts Nate. You know the kid rock at the super bowl you know first song he sang was his most popular song second popular second song they released it in his given name not a stage name and he and that had a different theme and you know I was convinced that that second song was redemptive and and you know whether or not you can see all the parts moving it seemed like it was kid rock. And now this is where I'm going personally and by the way Nate I don't mind it if you're critical of it I think like I said in the first time we talked about this I think we need to be open and truthful about it we don't be scared to say. You know you can't be as a missed it here or kid rock didn't do great there like it's okay for us to be critical of it. But the point is that we ought to be speaking about it and you know as Joe mentioned earlier give credit where credits do Nicki Minaj should not do any more music like much of her previous music she should stop that. And that credit for speaking out about Nigerian Christians and then kid rock like it's it is about discipleship I used the word discipleship in the clip and I want to pass it over to Joe before you finish us off Nate so like I just think discipleship in the area of all of these areas and the problem has been the church is just. It's like they don't want to talk about anything it's like it's this big void of emptiness and it's weird because all of us have opinions about all these things. Yeah we should have been for so long leading the discussion and it's not as though there weren't people over the last and political leaders and business leaders looking for input from. Christian voices the difficulty is they when they encounter the church they just get forning approval or disengagement and the this is unwillingness to be distinctly Christian to be unashamedly biblical to be unapologetically. Christ centered and word of God centered and to say well actually we stand with Christ and with the word of God and with the Christian heritage of our nations and this is what leads recovery and this is how we need to think through these issues so much could have been done to influence the culture and influence the cultural context Michael gave an example from the Kentucky legislature. I give a historic illustration in a few seconds from the UK where you know there are bishops Anglican bishops 27 or so I think sitting in the House of Lords who could have influenced legislation on things like contraception on marriage and divorce on abortion on Sabbath on blasphemy laws on all of these things all of that has happened. This stuff has happened within the last 50 years all of it when you think about blasphemy law in England England the way was only abolished Christian blasphemy laws in 2008 but we've been silent and we've been compromised as a church and we've been faithless and actually we've been put to shame sometimes and it's embarrassing if some rapper. You can't be the Christian leaders by actually being the first to talk about the persecution of Christians in Nigeria and frankly you know we can feel humiliated by that we should be we should feel embarrassed and humiliated when offers and rappers are saying more faithful things publicly than we are. Yeah and I think I guess sort of maybe to wrap up this section and give a little you know application or call to action is I think Christians need to deal with the envy in our own hearts. I think that sometimes we can see a cultural moment like this and there are many people with influence who wish that they were the primary voices behind it and sometimes God sees fit to use the most qualified and sometimes God sees fit to use the simple to shame the proud as you just said Joe and maybe that's part of what's going on right now. And so I think that there is a tendency sometimes in Christian leaders hearts to dismiss something if it's not theirs to walk away from something if they're not at the center of it and I would just say modify that sin of envy and stop saying you know that you don't want to be a part of something that's not yours and try to find your place in it rather than trying to find your soap box where you can speak out against it from. This episode of the podcast for cultural reformation is brought to you by Ezra media from in-depth lectures conference talks podcasts and exclusive content like premium shows and the podcast post show. Ezra media is the digital home for the Ezra institutes teaching and worldview resources helping Christians think clearly and live faithfully in every area of life. When you sign up for premium plus you gain access to exclusive content like the Ezra podcast post show where the guys dive deeper into the topics discussed in the main episode along with Ezra press ebooks and even the opportunity to join live recordings. You can sign up today by going to Ezra media dot TV and if you use the coupon code podcast you'll save 15% off an annual subscription. That's using coupon code podcast and you'll save 15% off an annual subscription now back to the show. And we have to say while praise God that this issue is being raised and as you said it's always an issue of discipleship and part of the reason Ezra exists is not just to engage those skeptical of the faith. It's to help people develop a deep and they're a biblical world in life you so that consistency and coherence emerges and we really get that covenantal understanding of what the Christian life is all about individually family church economy the business and state of the state itself. It's vertical relationship to God so you have to push through some of that noise and say well there is a turning point here. There's an opportunity here and let's not to squander it. And so as we wrap up this this last of our clips from TV USA I think you ended it on a really good note there Joe talking both about discipleship which we've touched on in our conversations a few times and talking about recovering and making the most of this cultural moment. It's interesting whether it's a moment like this or even several years ago when you think about sort of the Billy Graham crusade movement right there was a lot of maybe good things that happened there and one of the failures I think of that movement was you know strength in terms of sharing the gospel and maybe even seeing some true conversion but then kind of moving on to the very next you know big event where the seed could be sewn again without actually discipleship taking place. And so I think it's it's worthwhile for us to finish our conversation here about the need for Christian discipleship and this really brings us back full circle to where we started this conversation that is the role of the church to disciple the nations and ask the question what does that look like right now as we have you know Nicki Minaj and kid rock and you know all of these public figures as well as great politicians and talking heads in terms of political pundits all who are all the people who are in the world. All who are recognizing the need for the distinct lordship of Jesus Christ for the future of America but maybe having an inconsistent or as you say in your recent book Joe a divided mind when it comes to how they're thinking through these things so let's take some decide take some time to talk a little bit about discipleship and the need for that in this cultural moment. Well it's interesting that you refer to the Billy Graham era and I think one of the things we have to do is Christians is even when we look at a period in a ministry like that is identified those things which are really positive and good not dismiss them there was far too much dismissal. Of Billy Graham's work and ministry by many in the Evangelical community especially the reform community miss the logical studies have actually shown that you know I mean hundreds of thousands of people poured forward you know during his meetings to say they wanted to follow Christ and actually the study show that around 10% of those people are usually because they've been brought by a faithful Christian who was actually involved in deciding. They're still there and bringing them into small grief bringing them into the life of the church they actually 10 years later they're still there they stuck. Now you might say yeah but look at all the 90% that didn't but yes but if you're talking about hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people over that man's remarkable ministry you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people that stuck in the in the life of the church. Just important always when we evaluate these sorts of things that we don't do total dismissals of people because we think well they didn't quite have their theology as we would have liked it or you know well they he was a bit too ecumenical because he involved Catholics and so on so therefore we must dismiss everything with that that's been a real weakness I think of the Protestant community is that we have sometimes in our desire to. Maintain oftentimes you know biblical fidelity or or a denominational distinctive have been too quick to dismiss the faithful service of others even where we may disagree on certain points and it's interesting that the that Billy Graham did actually recognize that there were a few weaknesses as he look back on his ministry one is he certainly regretted a lack of theological. Richness and depth that he would have liked to have done more to deepen his theological understanding he would have quite readily said that you got to remember that he's emerging as an evangelist in a time in American history when you've had sort of I think it was a baseball star actually like Billy Sunday i think he played baseball who was a sort of one of those early massive angiolists in the in the 20th century and it was kind of like. Lots of music and I think he used to come onto the sage and slide on on so that on to the platform and so on there was that kind of revivalism and Billy Graham was kind of emerging in the midst of that and he he has to be seen within that kind of historical context I actually wrote a fairly major piece on Billy Graham's ministry in one of the appendices actually of mission of God which tried to to look at both sides and looked at this issue of discipleship the most important thing is that he's actually a very important person to be able to see the that you've raised so he talked about the theological issue he also did talk about the the challenge of discipleship that one of the reasons he decided in time that he wanted to work with as many churches as possible because he is he recognized that people who simply have made a decision and inverted commerce who are not actually discipled in the life of the church aren't going to remain in the life of the church they're not they're not going to stick. And so he also regretted the fact that he could have used his prominence and his voice more effectively to speak to some of the public political and cultural issues because he was concerned to keep as many doors open as possible. He didn't actually speak up and to some of the issues he could have addressed and one can you know look at that in a number of different ways and say well maybe maybe that wasn't his calling maybe that wasn't his role but I as I recall as memory serves he had some regrets about not speaking more directly to certain issues but again coming out of a largely artistic more fundamentalist context. That that wasn't the case though you know you would have to say Billy Graham was one of the first to insist that his crusade meetings were not segregated between blacks and whites with separate enforced separate seating zones and that sort of thing he took a lot of heat for that for saying no you know if the gospel doesn't segregate people. And so there were certain things he did stand on but anyway all of that speaks to the issue more broadly of of discipleship and in some respects I think part of the one of the great challenges of discipleship right now which as you said is the calling that that is laid upon God's people as his church that we are to it doesn't actually say going to all the world and part churches. It doesn't say you know go into all the world and and develop some really great evangelistic techniques or go into all the world and be nice to everyone and make sure everybody likes you know it's going to all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. That we are to teach and disciple that was what we call the great commission you know baptizing them in the name of the father son Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything I've commanded of course that includes what Jesus is teaching in the great sermon on the mountain. In which he includes the totality of his law so which he says not a punctuation marks going to disappear into everything's accomplished so until time itself reaches its conclusion if you want to be great in the kingdom of heaven you got to teach that so that that teaching of the nations that disciplining of the nations of discipling nations not just individuals nations is the calling of the church is the calling of God's people the calling of the church. God's people the called out people is bigger than planting more churches so that they can plant more churches so they can have more meetings. It's so that an army is equipped as you said earlier Nate raised up taught trained to go out and transform nations and cultures and disciple them that's the that's the size of the mission. We're on we're on mission for the kingdom of God the rule and reign of the Lord Jesus Christ and that requires this discipline of teaching and the starting point for that is a simple as you know I thought of this while you were speaking in the last segment. It's a simple as as we're seeing at the moment in some context say his name you know how the left has picked up on this whole it with the Marxist left has picked up on all this whole thing of you know. What they see as a social injustice that's taken place in a particular context or a particular individual you know say his name say his name yeah there's something in that in that we of course wouldn't hold to their broad agenda but the issue of naming the issue. Being bold enough and courageous and instant to name the issue I think the first step for Christians right now in the cultural moment is to be willing to say his name to be explicit to be concrete about the name of Jesus about the claims of the Lord Jesus about the Lord ship of Jesus Christ. It could almost be like a Christian watchward you say his name put a name to it what we actually believe that be vague talking platitudes and generalizations but let's actually say his name a lot of my friends that very very dear friends at Christian concern in London here in England talk about speaking about Jesus Christ in public life. The heat that they've taken for that over the years the mockery the the the snide remarks the ostracism from the churches very often but because they were concerned to say his name and remember the Lord Jesus says if you deny me before men I'll deny you before my father and him you acknowledge me before men I'll acknowledge you before my father who is in heaven if we could just start there right now I think in the culture say his name. Much would have been gained. It's good. As we were Joe as you were talking about Billy Graham there I was actually feeling quite discouraged in the sense of how often we are overly critical of people who are trying to have a public ministry. Yeah I sure hope that decades from now people are talking about how many mistakes the Ezra Institute made when we brought hundreds of thousands of people and sent out hundreds of thousands of reformational thinkers I can't wait for the physiological studies to be shown as to how many mistakes we made when we saw a real turning point in America and that led to a cultural revival of the world. A revival of a spiritual and cultural revival in the UK and in Canada. I look forward to your name will be in the history books for that Michael. Yeah it's right. Right here and how many mistakes I know. But on that point Joe about speaking the name of Christ speaking clearly I just want to say to everybody this is why we believe in our in person training. I think sometimes we like I'm so just so everybody knows I'm kind of going into promotions mode and the reason why I'm doing that is because so many people don't fully understand our full extent of our ministry we want to send out thousands of people to do cultural reform in the name of Christ in their own area. We want to hear stories of people transforming their society and the lives of people around them because they have proclaimed the word of God the law of God the gospel of Christ into their area and applied it in a very specific area. And so as we are talking about discipleship. I'm thinking of our ambassador program folks if you're a listener and you've not signed up to be an ambassador yet we want to know that you're following and we want to work with you to equip you specifically to send you out so become an Ezra ambassador. And that is an entire it's a relationship that we're trying to build with people and we are not trying to become the church of course the local church is such the local church is the vehicle by which these things need to happen. The specific training but we want to partner with the local church we want to partner with Christians in order to do some of these very specific things and so I think I think Joe the last words in the clip or something like we don't want to squander this opportunity. So we are at a very important moment for the Ezra Institute as a ministry where we are hoping to make leaps and bounds forward and we're looking to partner with an army of believers who are willing to join us and so I think Joe as you were talking about Billy Graham and I by the way I totally appreciated that history because you know I remember Billy Graham one of the famous stories about Billy Graham was that he would go into hotel room. And he would throw the TV out because he didn't want to be he didn't want to struggle with temptation. So great the guy made some mistakes I want people to analyze how hundreds of thousands of Christians transformed the world as they're working with the Ezra Institute and how many mistakes we made so jump in. And everybody needs to participate and I'm very excited about the future guys in doing our ministry because we are at the starting point and we're going to keep helping people think Christianly about these things so I was immediately thinking about all of our ministry opportunities guys as as Joe you were as you were thinking about this concept of discipleship. And certainly our ministry has been you know training people for particular spheres within society and I think that that's that's kind of a place where we should land the plane a little bit here is that there are going to be people who are watching this cultural moment watching the political momentum that TPUSA is generating. And maybe feel like they don't have a place in it because they're not politically inclined because they're not politically active and of course you know one of our messages is that we do believe that Christians and churches ought to be politically engaged but it's not only in politics it's it's in art and it's in medicine and it's in business ownership and entrepreneurial activity and in family life and in liturgy and and all of these areas. And so I do want us to recognize that this political movement is creating or or what we want to do is we want to not squander this this moment by keeping it in only the realm of politics. If it only stays in the realm of politics it you know it's doomed to fail what we what we want is we want Christians to see this cultural moment and say what does this mean when I apply it to the arts what does this mean when I apply it to law. What does this mean when I apply it to education how does this change how I'm going to educate my children growing up in this cultural shift what does this mean about my business that I've been starting and just getting off the ground in this cultural moment we want people to be thinking through what what does this movement look like when I apply it where God has actually placed me and I think that that's that's the question that we want in people's minds is how does this cultural shift apply to me where is it going to be. Why to me where God has placed me with the skills he's placed me with around the people that he's placed me with not just look and in her or the political movement is good we should get on board we should seize the cultural moment but let's not keep it in the political realm. Yeah that's great Nate and so you know when Joe and I were on that mountain side we finished off where Joe gave a summary of the as a institute and I think it would be very appropriate very applicational for us to hear Joe's last words here to close out the show. So here we are we've just finished a Ezra at TPUSA Phoenix the 2025 National Conference and the largest conservative movement in American history. Here we are with the Phoenix mountains behind us concluding this time together and marveling at the faithfulness and the goodness of God. Just a few years ago the Ezra Institute's future stood really on a knife edge the covid era the challenges that were all around us relationally politically culturally at that time. The future of the Ezra Institute was really entirely uncertain back in 2021 2022. It's been incredible to see what the Lord has done really we didn't know back in 2021 whether we were destined to be shut down as an organization by the state whether we might even end up calling our heels in prison for a few weeks in the Canadian context and the challenges at that time really seemed almost insurmountable and from humanly speaking they were. But God is always faithful and the encouragement to me to all of us should be that when we honor God he honors those who honor him and what we need to do in our lives is to honor Christ that's that's the priority on him be obedient to him follow his word faithfully in small things in the little things the things that don't seem significant and see then what the Lord can and will do. And so to look back even three four years to where we were and to where God has brought us today is a huge encouragement to our faith and we hope it's an encouragement to your faith as well because without him we can do nothing in the end it's all because of Christ and it's all for Christ. And this is why we sign off our podcast every week for from him and through him and to him are all things the calling for 2026 and beyond is to be faithful and let God do his work through us.