steadfastagars.com. Use promo code Covenant 10 for 10% off your order. Well hey everyone and welcome to another episode of Covenant Matters. I'm one of your hosts James Baird and today I'm joined by Pastor Matthew Adams. How you doing brother? Good James. I appreciate you having me on to talk about ministry here in Dylan and looking forward to our conversation. I'm thrilled. I've really enjoyed getting to hang out together and get to know each other. So Matthew for those of you who don't know he's graduate of Liberty and Erkskin, a senior pastor or first breast veterinarian church, Dylan, South Carolina, co-host of larger for life and awesome podcast everyone should go listen to. On the editorial board of reforming men general council member of the gospel reformation network and he and his wife Beth have three kids. I think that's right. That's that's exactly right. I'm impressed. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. From your website. Yeah. I spent some some of my seminary days with with our ARP brothers. So. Oh cool. Yeah. They they they have a Columbia South Carolina campus. And so about an hour and a half commuted wall and staff here in Dylan. I've been on staff here since May of 2010. Wow. And their pastor since January 2017. So yeah, been here a long time. Praise God. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, one reason I'm excited to talk about Matthew is my book King of Kings. I talk about kind of a reformed Protestant really view of the civil magistrate and government. And one thing I'm always talking about is that government has to promote Christianity. But that always has to be adapted to local circumstances. I'm always saying you got to be prudent. And Matthew, I think, has thought carefully about how to work as a Presbyterian pastor who cares about the civil well being of his town in a very particular location. So I'm here to ask Matthew about how he thinks about these things, how the Lord has led him to take advantage of different opportunities. Actually, I just want to learn from what Matthew has done. So you in for that, brother. Yeah. That sounds great. I think, you know, one, let me convene you on a great book. I have it somewhere here on my desk. I was passing it off to one of my deacons tonight. But two, I do appreciate your intentional localism of this conversation about the magistrate. If I was to have a critique for many of the online personalities that that would be in the Christian nationalism realm is that they they're not taking advantage in their in their local municipalities and they're not calling their own civil magistrates in their cities. To godliness and and a biblical morality. And so the scales too big. And so we we we have in the Lord's Providence, first press Dylan has been very active in the city of a realm here in our community. And and yeah, I'm excited to talk about these things. Yeah, I think a lot of people are worried that I have this like super big government view or want the Fed involved and everything. That's not true. But what I think the Fed federal government needs to do the higher levels of government, whichever brancher is they need to set up localities for success in these ways. That's a primary job. Right. They shouldn't come in. You know, I always say the guy pushing the mop picks the handle. Yeah, they do have a duty. They have a responsibility. They have to promote true religion too. But a lot of their work to promote true religion, Christianity is to make sure the localities have the freedom and the powers that they need to really help their people flourish. Yeah, you know, I would I would define myself as as the small government guy. And the higher you climb in the hierarchy of government, it needs to be smaller. And so, you know, I again, in the Lord's Providence, we have been able not only to have a voice here amongst our civil sphere in Dylan, South Carolina. But to actually help our civil matter with a very robust understanding of working for the good of the people right here in Dylan. You know, we're surrounded by different counties. We're surrounded by different cities. We belong to a state. We belong to a nation. All that is well and good. But how do we benefit the people right here in the city of Dylan? And if our good work, you know, crosses the county line, you know, so be it. But our focus is right here at our home base, our quote unquote Jerusalem, for sure. Amen. Well, let's take a quick step back. Matthew, how do you, we could you just sketch your political theology for us? How do you think about the duties of government, how the moral law factors in? I know you're a large cataclysm guy, so maybe you'll want to use that. But just sketch for us kind of where you are on these things. Yeah, so, you know, I think that and I'll probably blur the lines and some of my comments here about the spirituality of the church. But, but nonetheless, I believe that the church is about the ministry of works, sacrament and prayer. We make disciples, but our disciples are not divorced from the life in which they live outside of the church building in our development of disciples by word, sacrament and prayer. We are sending people out to be godly witnesses to reflect the light of Christ into our community. Therefore, an appropriate way in which word and sacrament and prayer ministry all to look is preparing them to go do that. And so, I'm giving away some of our conversation here, but here within within my church, I have the mayor of the city of Dylan, I have the city manager of the city of Dylan, I have the recently retired police chief of the city of Dylan, who is now an investment banker with one of our local, with one of our local banks here in town. And so, I think that's still a very prominent role within our community. We have a school that serves hundreds of families. And we have teachers in that school, we have administration in that school. And so the way that I'm looking at the mission of the church is, yes, I'm going to be about word sacrament and prayer right here. And I'm preparing them to go be a godly mayor or godly city councilman or godly county councilman, you know, the, the men that I have on things like the city and county election commission, you know, who are, who are hearing cases about elections and, and appeals and all these things. And I'm preparing them to go do that in a very godlike way. And the same goes for teachers and administrators and doctors and lawyers, farmers, nurses, mothers, fathers, I'm helping them, you know, I'm helping them prepare, I think the way in which we preach the word and do ministry, all to help them take their opportunities in all these spheres of life that goddess put them. And to, and to be Christ like in those. And so, yeah, I mean, so, you know, word sacrament prayer ministry here at the church, but that, but the church is not just institutional is organic amongst the community. And therefore, you know, as a pastor, I'm doing the word sacrament prayer ministry, but I'm preparing them and walking alongside of them even in those different spheres that they find themselves in within our community. And so, you take, you know, you take our guys who are in the political realm here within our city, right. I get the opportunity to preach to our mayor every Lord's day. And so, a matter of application, according to the scriptures is how he is to be a faithful mayor, which I do believe is upholding the moral law. I do not agree with these brothers across the evangelical Protestant world, who, who says that the civil magistrate only is required to promote the second table of the law, those commandments five through 10. I think that the more law is, is binding for all people. And, and so, you know, I think about, you know, something like larger catechism 108 as it's talking about the second commandment and the duties required of the second commandment. I'm going to have conversations with our mayor about God has given you, providentially, this place of authority. He is placed upon your heart, a calling to be the mayor of the city of Dylan that has been externally affirmed by our citizens, you have been elected. Therefore, second commandment requires you then to read our, to read our city of all idolatry. That is part of the second commandment. And, and so, yeah, just, just trying to help, you know, these, these men and women here in Dylan realize that the law of God, applause to them personally, but also applause to the way in which they conduct themselves in these spheres of influence. And so, yeah, I mean, if we think about different larger catechism questions, you know, everybody kind of on our side of the spectrum loves 191, where true religion is supported and upheld and countenance by the magistrate. But you can, I mean, you pull that, you pull that line from 191 and we were talking about this the other day, James, and I was thinking about this as we spoke about it. You start pulling that thread from 191 and you're going to, you're going to butt up against 108, 109, you know, the sense, not only the duties required or the second commandment in reading of idolatry, but the sense for biden is tolerating a false religion in 109, right? You're going to butt up against the Americans did remove that one. The Americans did remove that one. That's right. But the principle still exists wrongly. They removed it, I think, but the principle still exists in larger catechism. I just a quick point on that. Yeah. So this is important. I think peace for confessional subscription. So just because the Americans remove something does not mean that it's forbidden to believe it. It just means it's not required. Right. Yeah. You cannot, you cannot take it. You cannot state a difference or be granted an exception to something that is not there. That's right. And yeah, that's perfectly permissible for you to say like, yeah, it's a sin. And I think they shouldn't have removed it. I actually difference there. But you know, if you're not going to remove the clauses in 191, then you by removing some wording in 108 or 109, you're not doing anything because the principle still exists in 191. And I've made the case. I've made the case that really what the Americans are doing there is clarification because even in a 1646, the Westminster devines believed that many forms of toleration were not only permissible, but were required by necessity. Right. So, so I think all that they're doing there is saying, this is this could be misinterpreted. So we're just going to take it out for now. Yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't necessarily removed for the reasons of religious freedom or anything like that as as men argue in our American context. Yeah. So I actually, you know, this, this helps me. One of the categories are really two of the catechism questions that that I wasn't playing on mentioning, but I was just having this conversation with our new police chief, who's a, who's a bob, a believe in Christians, well, doesn't go to our church, but I have a good relationship with him. Because he was on the, he was in leadership in the department under the former police chief, who's a member of our church and the chairman over the dark and it. I was talking to him about questions 127 and 129. The, you know, the obligation of the moral law to provide and protect. That's right. You know, this is not, you know, a police force is, is not a fabrication of, of man's invention. Provision and protection is, is a divine institution that has been given as a grace and as a gift for civilization by our Lord. And of course 127 and 129 is talking about the relationship of superiors and inferiors. And, and let's not forget 183 that, that requires us to pray for our magistrates and into, you know, to, to humble ourselves, you know, beneath them as, as servants of the most high God, who've been placed in authority over us. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, there's so many larger. I think it's out of questions that I think about one, one 18, you know, that is where the larger catacism says that the fourth commandment on the Sabbath is specifically directed to not just governors of families, but all superiors. Right. So that's just the way the state of justice is. And the state of justice is just, you know, right there's supposed to help people keep the Sabbath. Yeah. And, and as a citizen of a, a city, and a municipality who just removed our Blue walls, you're last year that was, that's how it's helped small town Dylan's up here a lot of, works, but, but yeah, I mean, I, I openly spoke against it. restaurants have been open for a while and you could go grocery shopping and things like that. But you couldn't do any sort of alcohol. You couldn't shop in, you know, the Walmart here in town had the like the police line looking yellow tape between the grocery side and the clothing and sporting goods side. No way. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And yes, we just removed those and I openly spoke against it. But of course, everybody says that's how you get businesses to come is you have to remove all your blue walls because hotels aren't going to come if they can't open their bar on Sunday, which I think is a argument that doesn't hold a lot of water. Well, who you're real goddess? Right. Yep. Yep. Are we going to trust the Lord to bless our city for faithfulness or are we going to take it in our own hands and try to do everything to a piece of big corporation? Yeah. And yeah, I mean, that's definitely a an argument that needs to be made when these conversations are going on. So yeah, yeah, I think about the BCO talks about the duties of elders, right, teaching elders, especially one of them is teaching the people their duties that they ought to fulfill throughout the week. Yeah, that's what ordinary means ministry. And then it's also important to remember that our duties are connected to our place and our calling. So our authority and our vocation. So when you're teaching your people their duties, it's not just general human duties. That's part of it. But it's also the duties of fathers and mothers, husbands and wives, employers, employees, magistrates and subjects. And so yeah, specific application to politicians as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Lord, the Lord's giving me the opportunity to run in some of these circles. And, and, you know, we, because, you know, our mayor is a member here, and actually an inactive elder, he's been an elder before as when he was elected to mayor, he, he came off of our session to focus on that, which was fine. But, you know, that's open the doors to me being able to talk to state representatives in Columbia, South Carolina representatives who sit in the house and in the Senate of Washington, DC. Wow. And, and, and, you know, we talk, I mean, I take those opportunities to talk about some of these things. You know, I mentioned that we have a Christian school. We had a governor candidate here that that I was speaking with. And, and I just got to talk to her about school choice, which is a big deal right now in South Carolina that just opened up and, and, and how beneficial that has been for our school and for our families. And, and, and I talked to her about the idea that we're sending out, you know, teenagers after they graduate from us who are going into the work environment, who are going into colleges, you know, and, and we're sending them out with a, a full biblical worldview. Yeah. So, you know, they might not all be Christians. But they've heard, you know, the moral law, they've heard, you know, living in Christ's likeness, they've heard the gospel. And so the foundation of morality that they have is different. And so they have a better work ethic. They have a, a better understanding of how to treat our neighbors. They, they, they have these very practical, but biblical foundations that helps them to be better citizens. And so it, you know, the conversation is, this isn't only a benefit for our school. This is a benefit for our city and our colleges and our state and our nation. And because, because we're fully convinced that we're sending out better students because they have been instructed in the scriptures from 2k, many of our kids from 2k to 12th grade. And so we've had them, you know, the majority of their life at this point. And, you know, they have, you know, even if they're not professing believers. And we're not a covenant school, actually, that is one of those fascinating things about our school. We have, we have a couple of Hindu families that send their children to our school. We, man, I don't have time to talk about this, but we just had a, a Muslim family conferred Christianity. But, we've got three of our preschool, which was fascinating to, to help walk through. And, and, and so we have all sorts of different walks of life, even religions, but we're dogmatic. Like, you can send your child here, but they're going to be instructed in the scriptures. And it's not just a Bible class. We're intentionally, biblically integrated in all of our subjects and all of our grades. And they will be memorizing scripture. They will be learning, you know, six day creationism. They, they will be applying, you know, the, the, the biblical morality to the ways in which they play sports and participate in clubs and represent our school. And I mean, it's, it's, you know, we're, we're very intentional in making sure that those families who aren't walking with the Lord and don't make a public profession of faith, they understand our teachers do. And our church does. And therefore our school does. And this is, we're sending out, uh, biblically grounded students, um, and biblically knowledgeable students. And, uh, and I think that's a benefit for society. For sure. Yeah, for sure. And a lot of the families are going to attract our ones that want you to offer that. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, most of our, most of our families are coming because that's what they want. That's right. Now, you know, some of our families like these, you know, like these, these, these Hindu families who have been coming, uh, you know, they, they won't just private education. Um, you know, they, but, uh, but, but they're told right off the bat, like, we're, this is not a Hindu school. This is a Christian school. It's in our name. Um, and therefore, uh, they will be learning the Christian faith. It's interesting though, um, that they are more respectful, uh, to put their child in a, in a Christian school than in a public school because they, they even give credit to, uh, in language to, uh, the idea that we'll be training their children in, in moral ways, uh, that it will be a benefit for them to, to learn the, the biblical morality of Christianity, uh, in the long run, uh, rather than being a public education environment. That's awesome. Just fascinating. Uh, tell me, awesome. I mean, tell me, uh, what's the light, man. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it, it's attractive. Um, and, uh, you know, not, not only preserving the world, but giving flavor to the world, just being good, being good people. Uh, you know, I think about Joe Rogan all the time, and we're kind of off base at this point, off, off, off on a rabbit trail. But I think about Joe Rogan all the time, and in his infatuation with biblical morality. Yeah. I mean, he, he will say, you know, some of the very same things that some, somebody like Charlie Kirk, a, a Bible, believe in Christian, had said, you know, there's not one, one thing in the Bible that if you will live it out, it's not going to make you a better person. Um, and, uh, and, and that's fascinating to me that, that the attractiveness of Christ's likeness is catching the attention of people who are just so fed up with our culture. Yep. Um, and, uh, and yeah, I mean, so, so, yeah. One thing I know, those opportunities, I, one thing I notice about what you're talking about is once you get, once you focus on localism, you really want to build institutions, right? Because you want to make lasting, sustainable change on your local community. It's not just about railing against something or there's a appropriate time to preach against something, but in general, you want to build an institution. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, before we hit the, hit, before we hit the record button, we were talking a little bit about our Christian school. Our Chris school started in a prayer meeting, midweek prayer meeting in the 70s here at first prayers. And that was, that was the dream, uh, to, to build an institution that served our community. Um, and, uh, you know, not only that would, that would have a robust academic curriculum. Um, but, but also that would be grounded in, you know, the gospel, we grounded in the scriptures, uh, to, to really be a ministry, uh, to our, our local municipality. Um, and, and so you, I mean, you're seeing that come into fruition now that the school's been around, uh, since the mid 80s with a preschool. I mean, we're, we have, you know, young adults moving home, um, becoming lawyers and doctors, running for city council, running for county council, and, uh, being, you know, very, very vocal, uh, leaders within our community that they might not have come to our church, uh, but they've gone to our school. Yeah. Uh, and so those, those very same biblical principles, uh, are being heralded and magnified within our community, just because a group of 30 believers at a midweek prayer meeting decided we're just going to do something, we're going to start praying for something crazy, um, and, and to see a school and, and, and, you know, the Lord's bless that, um, the school's much bigger than we ever anticipated it being. Um, and, uh, I mean, we quickly grew out of our, our own church facilities had, had to start building. Um, and so we're right on the outskirts of the, of the city limits and, and, you know, a multi-million dollar campus serving, you know, 540 families, that's not just students, 540 families. Um, and, uh, and all the way from, from infant care to 12th grade, wow, we're, we're offering these, this program, um, this biblical integrated program. Um, and, and, and, and you, I mean, you just see the fruit all around our town, yeah, of, uh, of the work of that Christian school, uh, helping, you know, develop, uh, not only a, a, a, a, a growing and optimistic community, um, after many years of, uh, despair within small towns, South Carolina, after, after NAFTA, um, you know, in textiles, move across the seas, uh, but, but you're seeing new life being breathed into our city, uh, and these young families who are doing that, that work, uh, they're all graduating from Dylan Christian school. Um, and so the, the, the influence goes far beyond the, the high steeple of the first prayers right here in the heart of, of our community, is carrying out into our other churches and into our, uh, into our, into our, our doctors offices and our law firms and our restaurants and our hospitals and everything like that, which is, uh, tremendous. Um, and, and, uh, yeah, the Lord's just blessed that beyond any sort of imagination or really anything that, anything that I could articulate well, um, but, but yeah, building institutions, helping develop, uh, a council, a city complex, uh, just full of God-fearing Christians, um, has been, uh, such a pleasure to be a part of. I don't know if you know this James, but I grew up in Dylan. I'm back home. Yeah, I'm back home. I grew up as a Pentecostal boy here. That makes sense. Uh, yeah. And, uh, and, and so I became repressed here and was at Clemson, uh, for college and, uh, and, and came back to Dylan to, to come on staff here at first prayers and, uh, and, and been here ever since. Um, and so, you know, it's, you know, there are some challenges to that, of course. Um, but to see just the, just the transformation, from when I was younger, and textile started moving out, people started being laid off, and there was a huge exodus of Dylan and now Dylan being the place where these young families after they graduate from college or get their master's degrees or doctorates or whatever they're coming back to raise their family. And they are, they are so committed to seeing the success of our city. And that's not an ungodly ambition. That's a holy ambition. Yeah. Um, you know, yes, we want to see our churches, our gospel preaching churches in our community flourish, and thrive and grow. Um, but we want to see, thriving churches growing so that those people can go do gospel work out into the secular world. Yeah. Um, and, uh, and, uh, God made creation. God made an effort. That's right. And so, and, and, you know, one of the things about, oh, man, uh, just that little phrase, uh, God didn't call Adam and Eve just to, uh, tend to garden and it remained the same. He said, go cultivate it, go through it, go work it. Um, and, uh, and, and that's what we want to see. We want to see those creation mandates happening right here in our city, where we're sending Christians out of first prayers and any, any of the other churches that are gospel preaching and gospel believing, we want to see them go out and really cultivate our community. Um, and so, you know, one of the things that I love about our confession and our catechisms, even the American revisions, uh, is that, um, and even our, our understanding of the spirituality of the church, I would argue, it's not, it's not hindering anyone from going and running for mayor. So, um, it's actually encouraging it. That's right. You know, go be a Christian and go do that. Um, uh, for the, for the betterment of neighbor, uh, for the world, God. That's a whole point of 23.2. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Um, and, and so I think that's why I get so, man, get so frustrated with people who say our understanding of the spirituality of the church, uh, kind of, uh, monasticizes if you will, the congregation from the community. Yep. Uh, you know, well, we're not, you know, of the world. Uh, okay. Yeah. Amen. We're not of the world. But we are in it. Um, and, and therefore, uh, those, those same, they're same creation mandates of filling it and cultivating it and working it, uh, and, and being salt and light and all of those things still apply to us. Um, and, uh, man, I love to hear. So, I'd love to hear, uh, I don't know how much you want to tell me, but, you know, some things are best left unspoken, but maybe you could give us a few examples of how that long ordinary means ministry, that long institution building has manifested itself in particular things that may be controversial. Your town was able to take a stand to the right thing. Yeah. Yeah. I, I have, uh, I have one, uh, illustration that I don't, I don't mind telling it all. Um, you know, the, small town, South Carolina deep in the Bible belt is not immune from the cultural pressures that we're experiencing today. Um, might be more or less depending on seasons or, you know, compared to somewhere like Atlanta or Seattle, of course, we're not dealing with it in the same magnitude as some of those metro areas, but, but, but here recently within the, within the last 18 months, we had, uh, a, a band of people, uh, during our St. Patrick's Day celebrate, I mean, Main Street, uh, that wanted to do a, a drag queen show. Um, they wanted to host it downtown, they wanted it to be during the hours of celebrate Main Street. They wanted to have, you know, drag queens out on the streets and inviting people to come. And, uh, and, and of course, uh, you know, Christian pastors started, you know, crying foul. This doesn't belong in our, our city, as they should have, I was part of that. Um, and, uh, and, and yet, uh, you know, our, our city council, uh, and, and our, our city administration, they were very concerned about things like law, um, as they, as they probably should have been. Um, you know, uh, you know, there's, there's a difference in, in understanding the dynamics of, of what we're dealing with here in America and, and being fearful. I don't think they were fearful. I just think they were, uh, using some, some critical thinking and some common sense. Uh, and so, uh, you know, there were many city officials who, who started putting their brains together, uh, and trying to think how, how can we, uh, not promote this? Uh, and not even, and even more, I would say, not just not promoted, but actually not have this as, as part of our, our city. That's right. Um, and so they started looking at ordinances and they started looking at, uh, different, uh, you know, different, things within our own municipality books and, uh, and they found a way in their structure, right, say, this isn't happening. Um, and, and here's why, according to our laws, here's why you cannot do that. Um, and, uh, and that was, you know, what I loved about it was, you know, one, they were courageous enough to do it. Um, I, you know, they were, they were not cowardly at all. They, they tackled it head on, but they did it in ways in which God has given them, uh, Justin legal authority, just, just in legal authority to do it. Yeah. They use the means that God, God has graciously given them as, as civil leaders within our community to go, no, um, this isn't happening. Uh, and, and so that's, you know, there's, there's other stories like that, but that was one of the most recent where they just said, yeah, we're not doing this. Um, and you couldn't, you know, you couldn't blame it on a, a particular church. You couldn't blame it on a particular religion. Mm-hmm. It was, these are the means that God has given us. Um, they, he has called us to execute justice, um, and to work for the good of our community. And, and here's the ways that we're going to stop this, because this is not good. Um, and, uh, and yet, so I mean, if you think about those kind of chism questions that we were talking about earlier, um, reading idolatry, uh, tolerating false religion, you know, working to provide and protect our community, uh, all these things, um, they, they did it. Um, and, and of course, in doing that, and, and, even in the ways that they did it through, the, the ordinances in the law, um, they supported, the true religion of, of Christianity in that way too. Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, that was, it was such a, it was such a fascinating thing to watch. Um, you know, it reminds me of how we like, I think oftentimes we'll talk about being at war, right, with a church militant, and we'll talk about it usually as, um, the flesh and the devil, right? But we are also at war against the world. Yeah. And, uh, we had a similar situation here in Naples where they wanted to do it, they had done a drag queen story hour for kids, the community flipped out because it was just a strip show for children with men, women, given them cat, it was terrible. I mean, the pictures were disgusting. Uh, it was an abomination. And our city council, the next year said, now you can't do that. And they went and looked at the books and found a way to do it, right? Um, but you know what happened? The ACLU came in. And we had a case, uh, funded by who knows how many non-Christian billionaires, uh, wicked men and women, funding these lawyers to come in and work through federal courts to force a community to allow its children to be around, uh, sexual deviants, right? And, uh, that is just an abysmal, you know? And so, you know, you don't want higher levels of government, um, certain meddling in your little local politics, but you do want to, um, pray that God would work in our nation in such a way that the good men and women, godly men and women in these localities, um, aren't having to fight an uphill battle against people who don't want their best, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A handful of years ago, um, I was invited to go speak, uh, at an FCA, a fellowship practitioner, athletes meet, um, at the, at the high school that I graduated from. Yeah. And, uh, and I love the opportunity, um, but of course, uh, the ways in which public schools, are trying to maintain some sort of, uh, religious organization is to say that these things are student-led. Um, and so, of course, someone, uh, an unbelieving faculty member, uh, Crod Fowell because I was a pastor, uh, and I came in and, and shared the gospel and, and, you know, spoke from God's word to these students. Um, dear, and, dear, and break, I mean, it was a totally elective hour of the whole nine yards. Um, and, uh, and he, you know, wrote a complaint, he had some of these wicked men, uh, and women within our state trying to, trying to, you know, reprimand our school system and all these things and, um, the, the school superintendent, uh, who's, uh, who actually is, uh, a politician as well, uh, at our state level, uh, he started really working, um, and he used the alumni. Um, this is an alumni of our school, uh, and he is able to come and to speak. Yeah. He didn't come in the capacity of a pastor. Yeah. Uh, is he a pastor? Sure. Uh, but, but interestingly enough, the way that, the way that one of the high school kids did a flyer for that, that, that specific FCA meeting was alumn, you know, alumnus, Matthew Adams. Uh, and, and so, you know, uh, me and, and my little sister went there. Um, and, uh, and so they, you know, they knew my name. I'm a hometown guy and so kids were coming and, and, uh, and, and, that's what they used. Uh, and, you know, with both of those situations, um, with the, with the, incident at the, at the high school, the local high school at, uh, with the incident with the, the drag queen show, um, there were a lot of people who pushed back and criticized our city council, or even the school superintendent said, well, you needed to, you know, stand firm for the faith and, you know, you, you know, yes. Um, but they did it in the ways in which, uh, they can enact justice and promote good in their sphere. That's right. Um, you know, did they faithfully because of their Christian faith have issues with what was going on? Sure. Um, but, uh, but that idea of prudence and and, and, and, it looked all thinking. It's right comes into play and says, you know, I can do this by saying he's an alumni. I can do this by ordinances and laws. Mm hmm. I, you know, that's not wicked. That's not cowardly. That's right. Um, and, and some people, I think, won't, won't, you know, won't these men, uh, who, who are in leadership roles, just a, you know, just to go to war in a way that is not working. That is not going to be productive. That's right. Um, but I mean, if you look at 191, it's not, you know, it doesn't mandate a means that he's to support and accountants, the, the true religion. It says, by your, by your, by your position as a magistrate, you do this, by your position as the superintendent, you do this. Yeah. Um, and, and so, you know, I, I think about, you know, the words that John the Baptist, um, when the, when the centurion and the tax collector comes, you know, how can we be faithful? You go be a faithful Roman centurion and you could be a faithful tax collector. Um, it, you know, it wasn't, you know, wash your hands of your position. That's right. It wasn't, you know, uh, it wasn't obey your orders as a Roman centurion or even your duties as a tax collector. No, you just go be faithful there. That's right. Um, and, uh, and I, I just see those actions, boy, that is a faithful superintendent. That's a faithful city council. Um, because they're using the means that God has prescribed for them in that role. And there are other, from on the scriptures. There are other examples of this happened in two, I think, and, um, Alabama and then in Florida, where you have these, um, Islamic centers, right, which are like mosques and school. And these localities don't want Islam to take root. Right. In their towns. And so they've got to find a way to basically through zoning loss. So you can't do that here. And oftentimes it's pretty weird, you know, it's like, oh, that would cause too much traffic, you know, uh, and things like that. That's, that's exactly right. I mean, so I'm on the, what they call the board of architectural review for historic downtown Dylan. Um, it is, uh, it's very mundane. Uh, it's not exciting at all. Most of the times where, you know, proven paint colors or signs that are going on new buildings on Main Street. Uh, but, but because of, um, a small little tick upward in the rise of Islam, due to some, uh, immigration, uh, things that we had going on in Dylan to support some, uh, support some manufacturing here. Uh, we, we rewrote our, our downtown historic district, ordinances, um, to, uh, to help, uh, proactively to help be able to stop something like that coming into, uh, into downtown Dylan. Um, and, uh, and, and, you know, yeah, it's a little tricky. It's a little, it's a little weird. Um, but, uh, but you, you learn, I mean, good city attorneys will help you, uh, navigate how, uh, how to write these things well. And, uh, and yeah, I mean, so it, it takes those kind of things. Um, and it, you know, it, if we didn't have the ordinances, should Christians stand up and go, no, we do not want this here. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, but, uh, but man, the, the ordinances and, uh, the, the opportunity for an alumni who just happens to be a pastor to come share the gospel. Um, those are, those are ways. It's not manipulation. But it's ways to promote the true religion. Okay. Um, and, and, you know, if, if listeners are, are, you know, if listeners are interested in, and starting to, to, to take advantage of these situations, go do it. Um, because, you know, the, the gospel works, um, and Christian living, I was reading, uh, Sinclair Ferguson's, uh, Christ in his church, not, not that long ago. Uh, one of his newer works, uh, you know, he, he, uh, he was kind of rippin on, uh, some of the old evangelism techniques, you know, uh, you know, uh, one of the, the story he was told as a kid, uh, is like, yeah, go into a park and when you see somebody walk in a dog, walk up to him and say, you know, dog spell backwards is God. Can I tell you about him? Uh, he's like, man, you don't have to do that. Uh, just go be Christ-like. People will start asking questions. Um, right. You know, I, I, you know, when, when I get the opportunity every year to, uh, to go share the, the Christmas story in the gospel and to pray at our annual, uh, city Christmas tree lighting, uh, the, the only steeple in view is First President's steeple. And so I get to point right across the road, where it tracks two blocks down and go, I'm the pastor of that church right there. Um, and if you're, if you're intrigued by this, uh, by this message, if you're intrigued by this story, you come find me. Um, and, uh, and you know, it really is an opportunity not, not just for, uh, church growth. Um, though, I mean, though, that's a, that's a, that's something that we've enjoyed. Yeah. Yeah. But, but to be able to point to a big steeple church, right, in the heart of Dylan and go, this is the message of hope for the hopeless. Mm-hmm. In the most wicked of you standing here, there's a gospel that your sins can be forgiven. If you want to hear about it, find, find one of these steeples, and go, go show up one Sunday. Um, man, you know, the, the opportunity, uh, to, uh, to share Christ, you know, to, to, to not only just share Christ with citizens, but to, to literally, to literally share the gospel with a, a US representative who was leaving Dylan after a ribbon cut and go back to DC, um, take the advantage, uh, you know, take the opportunity, um, it's an advantage to, um, you know, connect yourself with your city council. Um, ask, ask can you pray before a city council meeting or just have lunch with some of your city councilman. Um, you know, those opportunities, the Lord's providentially just laid them in my lap. Um, and I'm thankful for it, but it doesn't mean that you can't do the very same things that, that I'm doing. Uh, it just takes a little bit more effort. Um, but, uh, you make those, you make those friendships and you develop those connections and, and, you know, the, the new industry ribbon cut and all of a sudden you get that invitation, uh, and, and you're talking to, uh, CEOs and you're talking to, you know, politicians and congressmen, you're, you're talking to their staff, um, you're having lunch with, you know, their local you know, their local representation, they run their offices in your area and, and all of a sudden, you know, you've got the ear, um, of, of prominent and powerful people. Um, and, uh, you know, I, I, I, I won't share his name, but I, I was texting a US congressman yesterday, uh, who lives an hour away from me in Myrtle Beach. And, uh, and we were just, we were talking back and forth about the Save, Save America Act. Right. Um, and, and, you know, he was asking some of my thoughts and I was prodding some of his thoughts and, and, uh, and that's a, that's a connection that Lord's given me. And I need to take advantage of it. Um, uh, and it's nothing, it's nothing crazy, you know, that I've done. Um, but, uh, I, I see my, you know, why am I, why am I texting a US representative? Because I know that some of the things that he's voting on in DC will affect the community that I'm ministering. And, and I'm, I want to see, I want to see the community where I'm at, uh, thriving, uh, and I want to see, I want to see my community recognize, hey, there's a lot of, a lot of great things happening here. And, oh, by the way, all these people are going to churches. So, you know, um, wait, there must be something about this. Um, and, uh, you know, I had, I had someone down to preach our fall Bible conference last fall. And I was riding them around and showing them the new development and things and, and, uh, we just opened a huge pavilion marketplace downtown and I was like, yeah, you know, uh, this was pretty much done by all Bible believing Christians. Um, and from the, the contractor who's first baptized to our mayor who's a member of first prayers to, to our city manager who's a member of first prayers to, to, you know, to, you know, the landscaper who's a member at the local Methodist church who's now global Methodist praise the Lord. Um, you know, and Christians have their hands all in this and so what, when we have the grand opening, the ribbon cutting, guess what I'm going to see and guess what they're going to hear? They're going to hear blessings of the Lord. They're going to hear prayers. They're, they're going to see Christians who are exot about what's going on in our community for the betterment of our community. And, and that's going to cause them to, to start asking some questions about the gospel. Um, and so it's super exciting to see. Well, I see, there's five things that I love. Just kind of summarize what I see you saying here. The first one is ordinary means, right, prayer, preaching, sacraments. Yep. Includes empowering people to know their duties. The next one is institution building through the school. Right. It's a long term transformation of the community, right? Through training of the, right. The next one I see is that you have, you have something very unique, I think, that you've grasped very well, which is how power actually works. Right. So understanding how these ordinances need to be written in our current context, right? In order to, to do things the right way, you can't just come in and, and radicalize something. You got to work with the means that are at your disposal. The next one that I see is your openness to, you know, do we, would it be better to live in a society where you didn't have to do these roundabout ways to protect your Christian people, to encourage Christianity, right? What would it be better to just say, you know, this isn't allowed here because, you know, it's against the Bible. Of course, that would be better, right? And so you pray and you seek for long term change. But then the fifth thing is your pan Protestantism. I'm always talking about pan Protestantism. This is the American religion, right? And it's where you got the Methodist, the Baptist, and the Presbyterian all working together to have this Christian community that is, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think those five things that I see in your mindset, in your habits, in your long term ministry goals, as that relates to the community, as really the exact right way to do things. Yeah. And, you know, I appreciate that, you know, you articulated those five things so much better than I do because my mind's running a thousand miles an hour with different things I could say. But, you know, you know, I am robustly Presbyterian. I am a, you know, if you're to plot me on the spectrum of the PCA world, I am, I'm just confessionalist confessional gets. Yeah. But the, if the Lord sends me a Baptist brother who we can work alongside with, you know, I might disagree with, with some of his theology and doctrine and practices, but I won't Christ name it to be honored. And, and I want his name to be glorified. And, uh, Yeah, we're not ecumenical. We shouldn't be ecumenical in our Sunday morning worship. Right. Yeah, yeah. No, we're not. But you should be ecumenical and pan Protestant in your community. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The, you know, if, if I can, if I can team up with a guy who sees, uh, Dylan as a, a huge mission field for the glory of Christ, I'm going to work with him. Um, and, uh, and it doesn't matter to nomination. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter on worship style, even though man, I would, I would, you know, be miserable as some of these churches worship styles. Um, and you're going to try and persuade them to become Presbyteria. Yeah. I'm going to try. I've been working with the young African American man. I was like, you know, you've been meeting with him and talking with him new pastor at one of our black churches here. Really godly man. I was like, you know, you make a really good Presbyteria. Um, and, uh, and, you know, it's, it's, uh, you know, but, uh, yeah, we're, we're going to lock our men arm together because we want to see the barement of our community for sure. And there's a lot of work to be done. Um, but the Lord's blessed the work that's been done thus far and, and looking forward to what He's going to do in the future. Amen. Well, what an example you're setting for us. I hope pastors across the PCA learn from this talk and, and start to invest in their community by doing ordinary means ministry and just being good citizens, but doing so in a way that upholds the standard of the Bible with integrity. But notice how to get things done to you. Yep. Yep. Amen. The steadfast legacy Sumatra is a bold cigar with a nice balance of spice, leather and dried fruit. 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